Hamilton Travel Forum

Hi! My name's David, I'm 34 yrs old and live in the UK with my fiancee Linda.

We're both wanting to emigrate to Canada in search of a better life for ourselves. We have no kids [not planning any either!] and, quite honestly, are fed up with the way Britain is heading; particularly with the ever burgeoning European Union.

We both want to live in a country which, we feel, will appreciate our efforts and patriotism and reward us accordingly. We do not want to sponge off the state [seen UK deteriorate rapidly as a result of other people doing that!] but want to make a valid and worthy contribution to the Canadian economy and immerse into Canadian culture as much as possible.

Well, that's the political waffle done with! Can anyone give us any pointers and tell us of any pitfalls we may need to be aware of? We're looking to settle either in Ontario/around Toronto or areas surrounding Ottawa. What areas should we avoid, and why?

ALL helpful responses welcomed, including those from indigenous Canadians AS WELL AS British ex-pats who have emigrated and wish to share their experiences.

Why don't you consider Alberta - Edmonton (the provincial capital and site of the University of Alberta as well as lots of petrochemical industry) or Calgary (the oil and gas exploration centre for Canada, many companies have their Canadian headquarters in Calgary).

Alberta has the most vibrant and growing economy in all of Canada, we are the richest province, the land of boundless opportunity and free enterprise etc etc.

Consider the west!!!

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Thanks for the prompt reply!! We had mainly focused our attention around the areas I said, but are quite prepared to consider other areas.

our gain is canada`s loss,nobody owes you a living no matter where you go,good luck anyway

A few pitfalls, the weather is very ordinary and can get a little depressing in the long winter not to mention cold, I would also recommend looking into housing prices and wage info and the two don't compare very well.

On the positive the people are very nice, open-minded and welcoming, there is a lot of space. And like the other response the west coast is far more spectacular it may be worth looking further into the west coast.

A few more pointers -

Edmonton and Calgary are cities of nearly a million people each, but both are very "new" places. Edmonton will be celebrating its centennial this coming October!! Compared to Britain everything here is going to look as if it was built yesterday.

Your main consideration is going to be employment.. Your work (and career aspirations) may turn out to be the deciding factors for your destination.

House prices in Edmonton are the most reasonable in Canada (in terms of the top ten cities by population). You will be amazed at what you can afford with only an average salary (especially when compared to Britain).

Calgary is more expensive, but depending on the industry, the salaries may be a bit better there.

Toronto and Vancouver have the highest house prices in Canada.

Edmonton and Calgary have a "continental" climate - this means warm and sunny summers, gorgeous sunny autumns, cold winters (although not as much snow as the eastern provinces), and very variable weather in the spring. The air is dry, summer and winter.

Toronto, Ottawa and Hamilton have humid weather, which makes the summers uncomfortable. There is also a lot of heavy wet snow during winter in that region of the country. Having lived in Toronto for several years, I can honestly say that I found that the climate there wasn't as pleasant as the climate in Alberta.

If at all possible, don't move in the spring. It is an ugly season, and might depress you. I say this because many years ago, when I was only 5 years old, my family emigrated from England to Canada. We came at the beginning of May. I remember that when we left England, the apple trees were green and in full bloom, spring flowers were at their peak. When we arrived in Canada, everything was grey and dull and drab and depressing. No leaves, no flowers. I just couldn't believe that my parents would bring me to such a horrible place!!! Of course, I know better now!!!

Good luck with your plans!!

After reading above, I would say that Canada is really not 100% right for you.

In terms of award for patriotism, I don't really think there is, for rallying patriotism is more American style. Deep down, Canadians already know how great their country is & don't need to go into a hyper state over it.

Canada is also somewhat a spongy country, for there is still Universal Healthcare & extensive social programs.

Taxes are heavy in this country, though I don't know if it is higher than the UK. If you want to avoid the high taxes, choose Alberta.

Canadian culture is based on tolerance & diversity. (at least in Toronto & Vancouver...)

Also, I don't really understand your resentment of the EU. Or did I read it wrong? = )

Overall, following your comments above, Alberta would be the best place for you. It is growing rapidly, & has the lowest unemployment & taxes in the country. Alberta has a great Western culture, & at the same time awards you with a great life at an affordable price. Albertans are also very patriotic to their province = )

In terms of weather, Toronto has smoggy summers and wet winters. (We only had 3-6 relatively light snow falls last year...), & Alberta has clear summer skies and frost bite in the winter. = )

Hi Dave,

There are hundreds of people making the same choice. Check out the following, both have busy traffic with brits moving to Canada (sent my application in yesterday).

http://groups.msn.com/EmigrationTime
http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2

You're doing your homework which is good but seriously consider the down points especially the weather if you're considering Ontario. Things aren't as rosy as you'd think, salaries are lower, thngs are't as cheap as you'd think, taxes are high and property prices are on the rise etc.

On the plus side scenery is great people are really freindly, there's hardly any racism etc. After living in Canada for a year I kind of appreciate the life we had in the UK....though I do prefer it here of course!

Count on the process taking between 18 and 24 months without a valid job offer. You need to make sure you meet the criterea if you're coming over as a skilled worker but I think even a chackout assistant at Tesco could probably do that!

Az...

http://www.cic.gc.ca/

Que? I don't know why you think 'our' [presumably UK] gain will be Canada's loss!?

I clearly stated we want to contribute to the economy: we do NOT expect to be OWED a living - we want to WORK for one. Or have I totally misread your reply?

I have nothing against Canada, and I wish you both all the best.

But I'm just wondering if you will find your heart's delight there. Sure the EU doen't extend to Canada (but if runs a great bilateral exchange programme between EU and Canadian undergrads and researchers).

I'd also hate you to get grumpy over there about people who "sponge off the state". You do realise that the UK has a lower unemployment rate than Canada and that they are about equal in terms of long-term unelmployment (canada having a marginally lower level than the UK). Average income is also higher in the UK

Anyway as I said, good luck in your search for escape. My knowledge of the Canadians lead me to believe that you will find a warm and friendly welcome and have glorious scenery around you.

I assume that you possess an immigration status of some kind? Or a reasonable expectation of such? Does this status allow you to live wherever you please in Canada?

There are many wonderful areas to live in and around T.O. Too many to properly summarize using the limited space of VT. You might suggest what kind of place you ideally are looking for...what kind of neighborhood, neighbors, access to transportation elements, cultural infrastructure...the list could probably go on and on. Some clues would be nice, beyond your apparent lack of interest in elements correlated to childcare.

I was a quasi-expat living in T.O. for 5 years -- although that's overdramatizing the fact that I was simply there for professional reasons. I loved it...and would return there in an instant, conditions permitting. Lived first in Bloor West Village (Ukrainian area) then on The Danforth (Greek area). Would easily recommend both, albeit that they differ substantially. But there are many, many wonderful areas to live in that great city.

Also, to add an opinion on expatting...It is generally accepted that moving away from one's western civilization country to another to distance yourself politically will not tend to result in a lifestyle of contentment. It is a poor reason for moving in its own right.

Also, Canadians and Brits are far more culturally dissimilar than a somewhat common language might suggest. The differences will need to be overcome. It's a pleasant obstacle, to be sure, but an obstacle nonetheless.

Are you sure your contentment is going to be geographically based?

bring your work skills political joy devivre will fall on ground here. your education and work exoperience will be what makes difference

hi david,what i am really saying is life is not all about how much you earn,its about people and understanding,you say that you don`t intend to have children well that is a good reason for any country not accepting you ,generally countries accepting immigrants want them to have families because there is usually a lack of people, so you will not be contributing in that respect; however you brought the subject of negative politics into the equation and that irks people who are very happy in this country,nothings 100% anywhere you just make it as near as possible,hope you have a great life,bu remember you can always come back,
geo

Well, in case of rewards for hard work, our tax system sure doesn't do you justice. Especially if you are in the highest tax bracket, which I expect you are, you will see a lot of it disappear into public coffers. According to your e-mail, you do not favour income redistribution and social programs, so I would think that Canadian values would seriously violate your core beliefs.

Come to Canada only if you really love it here, you're okay with the weather, and if you're ok with social programs. Remember that Canada has Universal Healthcare, a big "sponge" program which every Canadian citizen gets for free. Also, there is welfare here, and that people here support more affordable housing and support for low income citizens.

Jobs are not that easy to find, unless you are in the right industries. (ie. Oil, finance)

I don't know what the situation is, but after the Thacher years, I don't think it can ever be that socialist in the UK.

Alberta would be the best province for your beliefs. = )

Good Luck searching for a new home!

BRYAN

coopanda87 - whoa!! - before spouting off on VT, perhaps you should get your facts straight.

Health care (medicare) is NOT free; it is paid for by taxes - the money comes out of taxpayers pockets - yours and mine. Just because the government (provincial, I might add) administers the money, it does not mean that they pull it out of thin air.

In all studies comparing the U.S. private health care system to the Canadian publicly funded health care system, the U.S. system is always revealed to be much more expensive (per capita.)

The key phrase is "publicaly funded". I think that you would find very few health care providers who would want to collect their own fees. Most want "in" on the public coffers, it's easier for them that way, but they do not want to be told how to provide the service.
And that's where the disagreement comes in.

Most readers of this forum are no doubt too young to remember that at one time there was no universal health care in Canada. If you had money, you got treatment, otherwise not - unless there was a kindhearted physician in the neighbourhood - and sometimes those doctors were not paid at all, or in rural communities were paid with sacks of grain or sides of beef. Do you think that would fly today? I think not!!

In Canada we believe in the "common good" - and universality of health care is one such example.

Alicja,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Above, I stated that Universal Health Care is a "sponge" program, which David refers to as government social programs in the original posting. Canada's Health system would conflict with David's political view.

David-to a Canadian your words sound somewhat harsh-we are a tolerant and diverse people.
As mentioned in another post flag waving patriotism is considered somewhat outré-you seem to have some off base ideas of Canadian reality.
Moving to the Ottawa area will put you in daily contact with French Canada and test your tolerance to it's limits.
Toronto is an ethnic mix unlike anywhere except Sydney and London-is that your idea of a good time?
If it is you'll love the place if not perhaps Moose Jaw or one of the southern US states would suit-Texas or maybe Georgia.

REPLY TO BABCIA & COOLPANDA87

Don't either of you take this as a criticism, but I am glad you are both exchanging views with each other on my forum.

This is not what I had expected, but welcome it neverthless as the more information we receive, the better a position we are in to make an informed decision.

I would just add - for coolpanda87 - that I don't have ANY problems with a social care program, per se. That's just how it is in the UK with the NHS (National Health Service) despite many parts of it being outsorced to the private sector. My main gripes with the UK - and they are probably not easy to put into words - are perhaps my perceived injustice of it all: the genuine hard workers and contributors to the UK economy seem to get little in return whilst the layabouts (or sponges, as you say) live in an all for nothing society. I realise this may not be much better in Canada, and we certainly DON'T expect it to be the 'land of milk and honey'.

Without turning the forum towards politics, it does seem that since 1997 (Tony Blair coming to power) things have deteriorated in many areas of life. Crime, education, transport (the trains are better in Tunisia (that's not an emotive comment; I speak from experience!)) have all changed for the worse.

It's perhaps hard to describe on here, but there's a general sense of apathy among the British people that has been around for a while now. Perhaps if some of the respondents on here had lived in the UK for 34 years, they'd know what I meant.

Nevertheless, I welcome all OBJECTIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE comments.

Hi David

I left the UK on my 33rd birthday. I very much like the UK, my whole family is there, I go back often. I lived in Scotland and then, for 9 years in London. Having tasted both life at home and life abroad, and mixed with ex-pats from around the globe, I can only endorse what a couple of people have said here already. The decision to move to another country is best taken in a positive sense...

Dissatisfaction with things at home is a strong motivation to look at alternatives (like my family members - I have more blood reltions in Canada than I do in my native Scotland - many more - they started moving out in the 30s). But as I tried to illustrate in my first posting, in lambasting the UK you also risk criticising some very real issues that Canada is grappling with at the moment. I have been mixing with ex-pats for nearly 10 years now, and, if anything I get fed up of them griping about how things are better back home (cleaner pavements, better service in shops etc) - I get fed up of it. You have to make sure you won't find the same issues on your doorstep every day that you thought you were leaving behind.

I too wouldn't like to turn too much to politics on this forum, but I think you'll find that the root of the problems we all hate in the UK (railway system, problems with the healthservice and education aongst them) could have had their roots in policies that were implemented way before Blair was even thought about as a candidate for Prime Minister. The UK was not a rosy place in 1995 either.

Anyway, I do wish both of you well, and you have made some great contacts through your posting here. I can say that I have done nothing but gain through living away from my own culture, even though the distance is not so great.

Gillian

ps it was in your original posting that the term "sponge" emerged

REPLY TO SAMSALMON

My words were not intended to sound harsh to Canadian people, nor do I want - or expect - to come to Canada and be greeted by 'flag-waving patriotism'. That, I feel, is the Americans' preserve.

The reason I mentioned patriotism is that it is almost outlawed in the UK due to the surge of political correctness.

Consider this: if an Asian origin taxi driver (and we have an ethnically diverse population in Britain, which I don NOT object to) were to hang his national flag from the rear view mirror in his car, nothing would be said. On the contrary, people would think him proud of his origins and welcome such a quality, rightly so.

If, however, I were to hang a Union flag from MY rear view mirror, passengers would question my motives; asking whether I was racist/fascist or supported the BNP (British National Party - a right wing political party).

Because of this - amongst other reasons - we have a culture in Britain where people fear voicing their opinions on the grounds they be accused of being racist or ostracised for inciting racial tensions. Ethnic groups, on the other hand, can say what they like about British culture/politics/religious beliefs and we all have to accept this as 'part of the UK's diversity and be tolerant of other cultures'. That I don't object to, as long as other cultures are equally tolerant of ours.

This is what contributes to the apathy I mentioned in my reply to coolpanda87 (above) and the best analogy to use is that Britain, in that respect, is no longer a 2-way street.

Also, I am uncertain as to where you have drawn your conclusion that my living in Ottawa in daily contact with French Canada will 'test my tolerance to its limits'. I have actually lived in France and french is my second language!

I hope this sets the record straight.

Gillian

Many thanks for your comments; they are very insightful.

My fiancee and I accept that we are a bit fed up with the UK and that that in itself IS the wrong reason to emigrate. If we had a pound for every time we have discussed it we'd be very rich, so we can safely say it's not just a whim!

Linda has relatives over there and we do not intend to make ANY definite plans whatsoever until we've been to visit. We also accept that we will have to go as prospective residents and NOT tourists looking at everything in a romantic way.

We fully accept that some things will be better/no different/worse than the UK, but are remaining objective in listing ALL factual (i.e. for what we have clear evidence) and perceived pros and cons.

We intend to visit next year and have both agreed that if we still feel the same by the end of 2005, we should start making plans.

We are both Civil Servants and have learned that Canada is crying out for medical/engineering/IT posts, but how much demand is there for (clerical) Civil Servants in Ottawa/Canada - if you know?

Once again, all your help is 100% appreciated. I am pleasantly surprised at the volume of feedback I've had in just 2 days from opening my forum!!

Hi David,

I am CERTAINLY NOT OFFENDED by your political views and feels that everyone is entitled to express their opinion. I am happy that you are consulting us before you make your decision about coming to Canada = )

I guess the UK still fears the display of the Union Jack, for the problem of racism seriously plagues the nation. It's the consequences that could arise once the flag is risen that has people in fear and dissaproval.

According to my vague recollection of Canada's history, it was not always the multicultural utopia that we have now become acquainted with. Being a citizen that was born outside of Canada, I know that people will accept patriotism of their adopted country once they feel accepted and welcomed. It's never shameful to feel proud about Canada, for I am proud of all it stands for!

Ironically, the Union Jack is risen majestically at my former high school, around the neighbourhood, at Queen's Park and at Fort York, which I pass by often. Canada will never lose its British roots.

If you want a sample of Government Jobs currently available in the Federal Government, try this link:

http://jobs.gc.ca/

PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF CANADA

http://jb-ge.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/Intro_en.asp

JOB BANK CANADA

http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/mbs/gojobs/gojobs.nsf

GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO JOB OPPORTUNITIES

http://www.pao.gov.ab.ca/jobs/

ALBERTA GOVERNMENT JOB OPPORTUNITIES

http://www.bcpublicservice.ca/postings/

BRITISH COLUMBIA JOB OPPORTUNITIES

http://www.workopolis.com/index.html

Totally off the political tone... a suggestion for your visit to Canada - don't come in the warm season (except to experience the hot muggy weather) but come in the winter.
But should you really want to find out about Canadian climate - well come in mid February - or early March and hear us complain about winter going on FOREVER, and the slush of the overly-salted streets where you have to do the jump from the curb to a dry patch at the intersections, or slip and slide on the ice patches on the sidewalks (despite the fact that people are supposed to clear their sidewalks).
I'm a born and bred Canadian, and I actually love the 4 seasons here - and I am used to our weather. I enjoy a bright and sparkling January day where the snow covers everything like a big fluffy blanket - well that is before I have to go out and shovel out the driveway, and sweep off the car that is covered with a foot of snow... and then the snow plow plugs up the end of the driveway again, and I have to debate whether I can drive through it without getting stuck, or if I need to shovel the end of the driveway AGAIN... wondering why I don't buy a showblower instead of just using a shovel!!! We can't change the weather (any more than we do with all pollution), but man, we can sure complain about it!!! That's the Canadian way - and remember, when the rain pours down on a summer's day, the Canadian thing to say is: At Least We Don't Have to Shovel it! All summer we will complain about the heat, and the winter we complain about the cold. It's a great topic in apartment elevators when you don't know what else to say to your neighbours.
So, what all this babbling is saying - is don't visit Canada in the nice weather to see just what tourists see - come visit us off season or in the winter season when you can experience reality - Canadian-style!

coolpanda87:

Thanks for all the websites- VERY useful. I have saved the workopolis one but not heard of the others - cheers!

CdnJane

Thanks for that large slice of Canadian culture - it's REALLY helpful go get input from indigenous Candians as well as ex-pats. It sounds somewhat similar to the UK: we do nothing but whinge about the weather here. At least you get 4 proper seasons!

David
You set off a lively exchange .

Check house /condo or rental costs before you move , for Ottawa and in particular Toronto.

Toronto is expensive , but compared to London it is a bargain. You will end up ahead .

In Toronto a house is an investment . Location is the biggest consideration in choosing a house or condo .

Toronto looks to be near the end of a housing boom. Prices now are high and people are getting into bidding wars when purchasing a house. When this happesn the market usually collapses. Prices will not drop 15 to 20 %..

Houses in downtown Toronto are the best investment .

Good Luck

I certainly did! But in way I'm glad as the more info we get the better.

Just been looking at the jobs market and it doesn't look too great - we can't get into public sector (what we do now) due to nationality requirements. :-((

We've both got a LOT of experience working for UK government and, without sounding too arrogant, don't want to immigrate to Canada if we end up in bloody MacDonalds; "Would you like fries with that, Sir?"! Our concern is that our skills won't be recognised.

We had heard that Toronto was quite expensive for housing, and we quite fancy Edmonton/Ottawa, though Ottawa is losing its appeal somewhat as many jobs want bi-lingual. I speak French (moderately) but my partner doesn't.

Any info on jobs houses - form anyone - would be MOST welcome.

Just out of interest, I did the mini quiz on the Canadian immigration government site (to see how many points I accumulate based on their immigration criteria) that I got through one of the postings above

http://groups.msn.com/EmigrationTime

It explains what types of work are recognised in the public sector - mine is because it's policy and project management. You may want to look at your work experience a bit laterally and see if you fit into a different category.

David - don't give up!! To find a good and suitable job is never easy, even for citizens of Canada. The provincial governments hire on contract and on wages by a different process than the job postings which go through the standard HR (human resources) procedure. Sometimes even a 6 month contract, or a job for a specific project (on wages) could be enough for you to "get your foot in the door", so to speak.
However, looking for a job this way is a lot of work. You will have to look at each Ministry website and locate appropriate divisions and departments, and contact management directly. Some people you contact will be very helpful, others not. But don't give up!!

By the way, Canadians lately have become very patriotic, very vocally patriotic, almost as patriotic as Americans. You will see evidence of that when you get here.

P.S. - Too bad that England lost to Spain yesterday. I couldn't beleive that Beckham missed the penalty shot!!