| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Thu November 4, 2010 10:45 PM UTC
If you are talking about a one night cruise; I doubt it. There are several that will take you from FLL or MIA with a port stop in KW. I know sometimes on the west coast there are repositioning cruises of 2-3 days that do San Diego/LA up to Seattle, but have never seen anything like what you want. Those are usually at the start/end of Alaska season when the ships are moving routes.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 02:52 AM UTC
There is a US law (Merchant Marine Act of 1920, called the Jones Act), which prevents ships from going from US Port to US Port unless they are of US manufacture and US flagged. This means that the vast majority of the cruise ships on the water today can not operate the type of route you are looking for. They get by with the Seattle to Alaska routes by stopping in Canada, Mexico, Panama, etc.
You might find some smaller specialty craft doing a trip like this, but I do not know of any major cruise ships are able to meet these requirements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 03:07 AM UTC
No regular cruise ships will do a two day cruise.
There are 4 or 5 day cruises from Miami to the Bahamas which also go to Key West. There's a four day from Ft. L to Cozumel which stops in Key West on the way back. But none of them stay overnight (they have to pay extra for that).
There's a high speed ferry from Marcos Island (Florida west coast) or Ft. Myer's Beach to Key West, and there also appears to be a bus tour down the Keys from Miami. But in those cases, you'd have to get a hotel to stay the night(s) and then pay to get back. (You could fly down of course and drive back or v.v.)
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 03:14 AM UTC
"There is a US law (Merchant Marine Act of 1920, called the Jones Act), which prevents ships from going from US Port to US Port unless they are of US manufacture and US flagged. This means that the vast majority of the cruise ships on the water today can not operate the type of route you are looking for. "
The Jones act applies to cargo and not to passengers.
What you are thinking of is the Passengers Services Act and it doesn't apply in this case either. Cruise ships cannot carry passengers from one US port to another except under certain circumstances which are too complicated to go into here.
If the passengers return to the original port (that is make a round trip), they can stop at as many US ports as they want. Ships can go from Baltimore to Charleston to Miami and as long as they go back to Baltimore to disembark the passengers, they are perfectly OK. If a passenger gets off in one of the intervening ports, the cruise line has to pay a fine, which they usually pass on to the passenger.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 03:27 AM UTC
"They get by with the Seattle to Alaska routes by stopping in Canada, Mexico, Panama, etc."
That's not quite right either. If they do Seattle to Alaska and return, they are perfectly OK. If they go from Seattle to Alaska and then disembark in Vancouver they are also perfectly OK - they have gone from one US port to a Canadian port. But to go from one US port (say LA) to another US port (say they go to Alaska and come back to Seattle), they have to visit a distant foreign port in the middle. Nowhere in North America counts. Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, Bermuda and most of the Caribbean countries are not counted as distant foreign ports. In the Caribbean they have to visit the ABC Islands off Venezuela (they usually go to Aruba and/or Curacao) or someplace in South America to count as a distant foreign port. For Hawaii, the ships either leave from Mexico or go to someplace like Fanning Island during the cruise
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 03:28 AM UTC
Everything I have read says the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (" Jones Act") applies to passengers as well as freight. This goes for everything as basic as the Wikipedia entry about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
"The cabotage provisions restrict the carriage of goods or passengers between United States ports to U.S. built and flagged vessels. Since 2006 it has been codified as portions of 46 U.S.C. ch.551 (Coastwise Trade). At least 75 percent of the crewmembers must be U.S. citizens. Moreover foreign repair work of U.S.-flagged vessels' hull and superstructure is limited to 10 percent foreign-built steel weight.[2] This restriction largely prevents American shipowners from refurbishing their ships at overseas shipyards."
It also includes some far more involved processes I have been involved with as part of transportation planning.
If you know of a web site or other source which says otherwise I would love to know what it is.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 05:55 PM UTC
The Passenger Vessel Services Act precedes the Jones Act and it is more specific. It was passed in 1886. Essentially, it says:
No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 05:59 PM UTC
http://www.sealetter.com/Oct-99/alancol.html has a discussion of the provisions
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Fri November 5, 2010 06:08 PM UTC
Proposed amendment
http://books.google.com/books?id=XVOZXowCVosC&pg=RA1-PA19896&lpg=RA1-PA19896&dq=Passengers+Services+Act+text&source=bl&ots=CicD5aNWzd&sig=4Tx4x1YIN4Tp_H-DFGgQ_ruT2tk&hl=en&ei=rkfUTKroK4SdlgfRh7jXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Passengers%20Services%20Act%20text&f=false
http://www2.cruising.org/industry/passenger_services_act.cfm
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sat November 6, 2010 03:27 AM UTC
Having been in long time employ of cruise ships in the past, I will say that GrandmaR is pretty much on the money, and I am going be memory rather than a specific website. There have been many attempts to change this doctrine, but as far as I know it has not changed, at least not to the degree, that is being suggested.
All the factors are frankly, - as suggested as well, - are far too complicated to get into. Suffice it to say, that regarding the question in question, - no you cannot do what you want to do. At least not at this point in time. As pointed out, most if not all cruise ships are not of American registry, regardless of what they represent themselves to be.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sat November 6, 2010 04:31 AM UTC
There's a summary of how this law impacts the Alaska Cruise Ship Market here:
http://www.alaskacruise2011.com/jonesactcruiseships.php
If I understand what this page says, there is no restriction if your origin is a foreign port in any location - which is why the cruise ships are allowed to originate passengers that disembark in Alaska in Vancouver BC.
So, for the purposes of this discussion, you could start in, say, The Dominican Republic and go to Key West, but you would not be allowed to go from Key West to the Dominican Republic without going some distant place first (or pay the fine), correct?
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sat November 6, 2010 03:15 PM UTC
No that isn't quite it. You can go from the D.R. to Key West and get off in Key West. You can go from Key West to the D.R. and back to Key West and get off in Key West (round trip). You could go from Key West to the D.R. and get off in the D.R. And you can go from Miami to Key West and return (round trip) or from Miami to D.R. to Key West and back to Miami and that would ALL be OK.
But you could not go from Miami to Key West and get off in Key West because that is considered coastwise transportation. You could not go from Miami to the D.R. to Key West and get off in Key West because the D.R. is not a distant foreign port.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sat November 6, 2010 09:50 PM UTC
OK, I am confused on that example. If that's true then how do the ships leaving from San Diego/LA get away with leaving LA, stop on Catalina Island, stop in Ensenada Mexico, and back to LA? Ensenada could not be considered a distant foreign port if DR isn't.
How about the Hawaii cruises that don't stop any where outside the US?
However, we lost the entire point of the original question, which the answer still is NO.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sat November 6, 2010 09:57 PM UTC
Wel James that's why I said it is complicated. There are addendi for different regions. Hawaii for instance was not a state, when the these rules (or rulettes...) were written. Eh, yup, I'll stick with complicated.......d:o)
....and yes the answer to the original question is still, - no.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sun November 7, 2010 03:25 AM UTC
A round trip to LA would be fine. Doesn't matter where they stop on a round trip (San Franciso, Ensenada - wherever) as long as no one gets off and all return to the original port.
The ship that works Hawaii (Pride of America) normally goes from Honolulu to Honolulu. But it is a US flagged ship and people could get off without paying a penalty. Those rules are only for foreign ships.
Other than the Pride, all the ships that don't do a round trip to Hawaii (San Diego to San Diego for instance) start in Ensenada by bussing the pax down there and picking them up. Or they stop at Fanning Island which is apparently a distant foreign port.
And of course the rules do not apply at all if the ship is in foreign waters the whole cruise. So there's no prohibition against starting in Barcelona and getting off in Venice while the ship goes on to Istanbul.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sun November 7, 2010 04:39 AM UTC
Thanks for the clarifications, everyone.
I notice that one source says even the _Pride_of_America_ had to go through a special exception process, as it was only partially built in the USA.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sun November 7, 2010 01:14 PM UTC
Yes that's true - NCL America did a switch and got an exemption for having the ship built entirely in the US. I did a cruise on her in June. It's the only cruise ship that does Hawaii in the summer.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Sun November 7, 2010 11:18 PM UTC
This is making my head hurt! I think I need another vacation to review all this information or maybe just another drink for right now.
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| Key West |
Re: cruise ship to keywest Posted: Mon November 8, 2010 03:49 AM UTC
> This is making my head hurt!
Yes, I know how you feel. Dealing with some of these antique rules can be a real mess.
One reason I know a little about this is because there has been a bit of a kerfuffle in our region because Washington State Ferries has a proposal out for bid to use a foreign flagged vessel on the ferry route that serves Vancouver Island, BC, Canada from the USA. There are apparently those that feel this particular ferry route primarily benefits residents of Victoria, Canada. However, it is operated by Washington State because the routes as they exist between ports in the USA and Canada can't be operated by a Canadian owned and flagged vessel, or something like that.
The whole process they are going through to try to develop something that holds to the letter of the law while not directly providing cross-border subsidies has been an interesting tangle to watch, but something I am very glad I have not been involved with directly.
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