Switzerland Travel Forum

Hello! We have purchased 4 day Swiss flexi passes. We are taking the train from Milan to Zermatt and wonder what train tickets we should buy in Milan? Should we buy tickets to Domodossola which I think is the border town and then hope there is room on the train to let us use the pass to get to Zermatt? Or, when we buy the tickets at an automated machine in Milan, will it ask if we have any Swiss Passes and price accordingly?
Advice most welcome!

1) Domodossola - Zermatt is purely domestic Swiss relation, thus 4-day Swiss Flexi is sufficient.
2) Domodossola is NOT in Italian international tariff called "TCV" which is fairly common for Italian rail to sabotage the said tariff. However, it is an Italian domestic destination.

The price: it's a rip-off of 17.50 Euro for a mere 1 hour and 18 minutes of journay on Eurocity train (till Domodossola).
The price otherwise should be significantly less - but don't worry. You can always use a regional train and it will cost probably half of that.

For instance: take the regional train 2144 departing 8:05, arrive Domodossola 9:38 and wait a mere 5 minutes to the EC-32.

EC-32 will be always "behind" the R-2144 because it departs Milano, too, just at 8:25 instead of 8:05

Not just you will save few Euros - but you will be able to take pictures because on the Regional trains the windows do open, but not on EC.

In general, I see very little reason why did you buy Swiss Flexi Pass. Most likely your best bet will be not to use that pass at all, return it where you did buy it - and use international relation tickets instead.

<In general, I see very little reason why did you buy Swiss Flexi Pass. Most likely your best bet will be not to use that pass at all, return it where you did buy it - and use international relation tickets instead.>

Sorry Gyuri, this time I have to disagree. I had a four day Swiss Flexi Pass last September and it saved me heaps. It is not the rip off that a Eurail Pass is and into the bargain I got free entry to some great museums and half price on other attractions (like the Gornergrat Trip). The poster just needs to pay for his ticket to the border and then use the pass from there on in. Don't forget to write the first date on it when you use it the first time and of course, each day after that.

By the way, there is little chance that yo won't be able to get on the train without an advance booking. I guess it could happen, but you would have to be very unlucky.

Kate - that depends how you buy the flexipass and how you buy the relation ticket.
So far I rarely seen a case when I could not beat the flexipass easily with a properly issued relation ticket.

First, of course, you will need some tools. Without the tools Flexipass isn't much worth and the relation ticket is useless.

Here is the tool/1: most up-to-date Swiss railway map. Print it out!

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/switzerland/switzerland.gif

Here is the tool/2: the international TCV fare calculator, based on IDOS database:

http://jizdenka.idos.cz/IT.aspx

And let's say, we want to go from Domodossola to Geneve, via Zermatt and Chur (huh!!!)

We also have to know, we want it to be from "Swiss"Domodossola, so I am using the Swiss code [1185], not the Italian [83] for Domodossola ;-)

We got a mega-ticket valid for one month (instead of four days), covering almost the entire Switzerland and unlimited train stopovers.

The total is 31.80 + 69.20 + 60.40 = 161.4 €

Here it is, consisting of three sequences, as I issued it:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7227/screenshot20100413at125.png

This is a mega-ticket, one of the most expensive things I can imagine - I don't think it is possible to cover all along the route in 4 days. O.P. is likely to have more humble plans for Switzerland.

How much is the Swiss FlexiPass? Well... € 211.49

Is it worth? Very unlikely. What could be (MAYBE???) worth is the Swiss Saver FlexiPass, for € 179.98 (looks like the O.P. isn't traveling alone, I wonder, who did advise her to buy a "regular" one if "saver" isn't any worse!)

Also there is SwissPass - which is even cheaper, price is CHF 221or 153.5 € if one gets the "saver" version.

That (and ONLY that!!!) could make sense, but really depending on the route and days. If someone wants to travel more days than only four or the route is shorter than the mega-ticket I just made than even SwissPass is a question.

Of course if the travel agent is not capable to issue tickets I just demonstrated - than the SwissPass remains as the second option.

Here in East Europe we also have RAIL+ card (everyone can buy it, you too!), costs 25 Euro, is valid for a year and you will have 25% discount from TCV fare (above one), hence the relation mega-tickets become even more attractive. There is no discount on the passes with RAIL+ card.

OK, Gyuri, I get your point about buying simple international tickets, which could save a fortune. However, being a relatively frequent rail traveler and a bargain-seeker myself, I am still unclear where one can actually buy such tickets in the various European countries. It is certainly not the most straightforward type of ticket. And considering that you probably cannot buy it online anywhere and that it is hardly ever mentioned in national rail websites, it makes it an even bigger mystery to me. So, is this a common ticket? I have seen various incompetent ticket officers in many European countries and I can imagine that they would be unable or unwilling to issue such a weird ticket. How does it work?

I'm totally confused now, but I still stick by my choice of the Swiss Flexi Pass. I did the research and worked out the fares for all the places I wanted to travel in those four days and it was definitely cheaper and with the free museum passes and half price discounts on the specialty trains thrown in, it was well worth the money. Since you are going to Zermatt, you must use the Flexi Pass to see the Matterhorn Museum, it is a fascinating place, which should appeal to all ages and since you can see it for free why not? (See my Zermatt page for more info. Also you can use your pass to go to the Gornergrat to see the Matterhorn up close for half price. Unfortunately,the weather was not good enough for me to do this, but I milked my Flexi Pass for everything I could and I would do it again. Enjoy your trip!

>So, is this a common ticket?

Yes, it is a common ticket and in PRINCIPE every major train station in Europe should be able to issue it.
BUT: the overwhelming majority of ticket offices are incompetent and in UK all the international tickets are being handled by SNCF outlet "Raileurope".

At first one has to print such tickets out. Go to a competent ticket office and they shall be able to handle it.
For OP: there is a serious chance, such tickets can be issued in Milano - but some patience is needed + a prontout.

For Venelin: Luckily, the more east you go, the better the situation is. The Wasteels office in Budapest can issue this ticket like 1-2-3, so the Wasteels office in Belgrade. Most Slovak offices have no problem and the MÁV office at the Déli will issue even more serious tickets like Barcelona - Tumangan (GR) (Russian/N.Korean border) - just out of professional pride! Last time they issued me Dobova-Savski Marof ticket, working about 10 - 15 minutes on a totally unfamiliar Croatia/Slovenia crossborder ticket, again - out of professional pride.

The ladies in Subotica at the station are not bad, but there is a lady in Sturovo who would issue ANY ticket and if it is not in the computer she would ask the ticket accounting in Bratislava OVERNIGHT(!) and issue the ticket next morning by hand.

There are AFAIK some really crazy "ticket freak" agencies in Russia, too - one agency issued Moscow-Beijing tickets... via Urumqi + Kazakhstan by hand.

These are rarer and rarer nowadays - sometimes the agency will indeed say: "this tariff in not in the computer, I won't issue the ticket, period". Luckily, Hungarians, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians work "from books", not from computers and they have the tariff books.

In Germany there is an agency in Berlin - they will issue every international ticket in Europe and domestic Russian tickets, too.

I now see the picture more or less clearly: one is entitled to buy such a ticket, but one also has to be assertive enough to get it.
Then I have a further question: If a ticket covers a number of countries and one makes a number of stops on the route, one might expect to get checked quite often. So... how does it work with ticket inspection? For example, I take a train from Munich to Belgrade via Salzburg, Vienna, Budapest and Novi Sad, where I want to break the journey. I am almost sure I will get checked many times, but how do I prove that I am not traveling parts of the distance for a second time? At least in Germany and Austria tickets are just stamped with the date and the train number, but it is never clear where on the train route one was actually checked.

They usually write on the back of the ticket the train number. This is the practice in Asian countries and all Central/East/South European countries. The odd train numbers usually mean one direction, the even train numbers the opposite direction. Thus it is pretty easy.

In countries of CIS plus the Asian countries in question you even have to re-validate the ticket BEFORE boarding the train at the station of travel interruption.

There are a couple of problems with GyuriFT's aproach though.
Firstly: What if you change your plans? You must stick to the itinerary that is on the ticket.
Secondly, you the Swiss Pass also gives you 50% off on the other days, on all public transport in Switzerland.

@Maryimelda: There are very few trains in Switzerland that you need advance booking for. Reservations are (with a few exceptions) never needed. The original poster just needs to make sure she has a ticket from Milano to Domodossola. North of Domodossola she will not encounter any problems.
That you can't get on a train because there is no room is unheard of in Switzerland.
Ofcourse it could be possible (but this is very unlikely) that someone reserved her seat from Domodossola to Visp. In that case she would just have to look for another seat.
Ofcourse, it should be possible for the train station in Milano to sell her a ticket Milano - Domodossola and at the same time reserving Milano - Visp.

@GyuriFT

Actually the cheapest option in your example would not have been to buy your super TCV ticket, but a "Swiss Half Fare card" and buy tickets locally as needed...

Yes, this is why Swiss Card is the second (or maybe first) choice.
With planning ahead and RAIL+ card being only 25 Euro here the "super-ticket" is IMO better. For O.P. it's probably a tie.

I have one more choice: drive for 30 minutes to Sturovo and buy CITY-STAR Switzerland tickets. This is an even better choice for us and in general for everyone who touches down in Eastern/Central part of Europe first.

One more reason why I try to suggest the visitors from overseas: touch down in the East part of Europe first, than buy your tickets. The more people traveling together, the bigger is the saving, even disproportionally big.

1) RAIL+ costs only 25 Euro here, in the West rarely less, than 40-50 Euro.
2) There is no problem to get even most complicated through tickets, written "by hand" - while in West Europe you have to push hard the agencies to do you a favor
3) We have extensive CITY-STAR discount system, not available in the West
4) The contingent with the "space limited" tickets (typically 29-39 Euro) to/from Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary if bought in Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary is much bigger than the same thing in the "West"
5) The local discount between the cities of East Europe is very big, typically 10-30 Euro will buy a long trip. If for some reason there is an offer in Slovakia not available in Hungary we just go over the border and buy the said ticket there. Extra cost is minimal.

hi all

this post just needs to be replied by me as working for the railways as tariff specialist...

a very important point gyuri misses ist the fact that a lot of international trains only can be used with so called "global prices" -> ticket and reservation in one. on these trains the scic-nrt (used to be called TCV) tickets aren't valid! If you use one of these trains you are obliged to have a global priced ticket. one of these trains is the eurocity Milano-Switzerland. the same on most french, italian and spanish national trains and some night-trains in austria and germany.

scic-nrt tickets are only of use on international yourneys, most national railtickets will be much cheaper. so the "super-ticket" is of not much use. another important point is, that not all railway companies (and travel agents wich work using booking systems of the railways) can issue all scic-nrt tickets, usually only the most used relations are programmed on the sales systems (because of cost) and hand written tickets aren't used (and aren't valid) anymore for international travel.

it is true that in lot of cases the passes (specially the eurail pass) are not the best option and point-to-point tickets are cheaper (specially where discounted fares are available) but don't forget that lots of travellers like to have the freedom of travelling where and when they want and are prepared to pay for that.

the swiss pass is of very good value, as it does not "only" give free travel on most of the swiss public transport but lots of special discounts (mountain railways, museums etc.).

so for the initially asked trip a global price ticket from milano to visp with the swiss-pass reduction (called partial-pass, tarifcode 49) at a price of CHF 24.-- (ca EUR 16.--) needs to be bought. this ticket can be bought at milano centrale up to shortly before departure if seats are available (mostly no problem). the regional train to domodossola is not of much use: it takes ages, is uncomfortable, lots of delays and mostly doesn't leave at milano centrale but from stations in the suburbs and will only save a few euros.

happy (train) travels!

<@Maryimelda: There are very few trains in Switzerland that you need advance booking for.>
KVB, I think you misinterpreted me, I didn't say there was any need to book trains in Switzerland. I said there was <little chance chance you would need to book>. I never had an advance booking for any train in Switzerland, the whole system was extremely efficient and a pleasure to use.

Markus,

I am fully aware of Global price system.
AFAIK, every train with Global price system can be used in Switzerland with TCV tickets. Correct?
The restriction does apply to Italy only - there if you look I did not suggest to buy TCV tickets.

(Sorry to call them TCV, now it's somewhat else, forgot the name and the validity is 1 month, not like 2 month before).

You can "stückeln" the "global" tickets and TCV at will - provided the TCV is not for Italy or France, there you have trouble.
At the very second the "global" train crosses the border to a normal country (like Switzerland) you can use TCV.

>scic-nrt tickets are only of use on international yourneys, most national railtickets will be much cheaper.

OK, than tha't the nnew name, "SCIC-NRT".

I disagree with this being generalized. The domestic tickets in UK and Switzerland cost MORE than international tickets.
Same applies to Hungary and Croatia: buying a round-trip gives you (locally) 60% discount from what you see as "international tariff" - making such tickets cheaper than the domestic.

For many countries the "regular" international tickets do cost more than domestic. Here we use RAIL+ (costs only 25 Euro in Hungary) and/or use CITY-STAR tickets you can't buy in the "West" at all.

@mabu you have to be aware that there are no "global priced" trains in Switzerland. And when it comes to train tariffs Switzerland starts in Domodossola. A Swiss Pass allows free travel on any train between Brig and Domodossola, also on the Eurocities (former Cisalpinos) so the OP really only needs another ticket for Milano - Domodossola. The Milano - Visp global price ticket with "swiss pass reduction" only exists to make it possible to reserve a seat the whole way I asume.

@GyuriFT: Be aware that hand written TCV tickets are not accepted in many Western European countries anymore...

>@GyuriFT: Be aware that hand written TCV tickets are not accepted in many Western European countries >anymore...

Applies to "Global" price. In Hungary not a single agency can issue computer-generated tickets unless these are for Global trains. For instance if I want to use local trains all over France - I still can buy hand-written international tickets in Hungary. To bad, I can't use them on the trains where reservation is obligatory. Same applies to Italy. I recently used hand-written tickets in NL and DE, no problem.

hi all

just need to point out a few things:
1:
domodossola is in much cases a speciality. it is a station on italian ground, quite far away from the boarder. its a station where the swiss and the italian tarif system is valid. but: the swiss tarif system is only valid for people starting or ending a journey (to/from switzerland) there or are in transit in direction locarno. italian domestic tarif is only valid for people starting or ending a journey (to/from italy) there. in trainsit from italy to switzerland using a EC train (eg. if you aren't beginning or ending your travel in domodossola) only global fares are valid!

2:
its correct that there aren't any global-tarifs within switzerland. but only for domestic travel. on international conections to france, spain and italy generally there are only global priced tickets. so scic-nrt tickets (as well as any swiss domesic ticket/pass) can be used as long you are not travelling international. on international travel only global price tickets are valid. it is not allowed to break up a reservation at the "boarder" station to get around this rule. if you have any kind of pass offer (for one or both countries) a global priced ticket needs to be issued using a special reduction code.

so for example you can use a TGV from zürich to basel with a domestic swiss ticket but if you travel zürich-basel-paris only the global price is valid, same for bern-domodossola in a EC is ok with a domestic ticket but bern-domodossola-milano can only be bought as global fare.


3:
the scic-nrt tarif does not allow to break up tickets (stückelung) if it is possible to issue a through ticket.
scic-nrt ticket for travel in only one contry can only be issued if it is not part of an international travel (wich would need to be issued as one ticket).

4:
reservations (global priced or not) have to be issued for the entire journey travelled on a train. this makes it impossible to use any other ticket then a global price on a route where a global fare applies

4:
railplus is only valid for tickets crossing a boarder. exception: travel starts or ends at the border station, it is not possible to issue through tickets (here tickets for both countries need to be issued) or in direct connection to a international global priced ticket.

5:
agree that sometimes scic-nrt tickets are cheaper then domestic tickets, much depends on the exchange rate and if any national reduced tickets are on sale.

6:
SCIC-NRT means "Special Conditions of International Carriage - Non Reservation Tickets"
global prices are officially called SCIC-IRT, Special Conditions of International Carriage – Integrated Reservation Tickets

7:
all this is what the tarif and ticketing rules tell us. what is issued incorrectly in the end is often another story....


so, i believe this was enoght tarif talk away from work ;-)

@maub: You seem to know a lot. Do you by any chance have access to the "ticketing manual"? If I try to access that part of the http://www.cit-rail.org/en/ website I'm, asked for a password.

I am not entirely convinced by your explanation though. If I were to buy a ticket Bern - Domodossola from SBB, and a ticket Domodossola - Milano from Trenitalia, would I really not be able to take the Bern - Milano EC? Same for the other direction. Swiss tariff applies on Domodossola - Swiss Border, so I can travel that with my GA. If I have a valid ticket for Milano - Domodossola and a Swiss Pass on what grounds could the conductor refuse me to stay on the train north of Domodossola? I don't even have to show him my Italian ticket...
It's maybe true that railways will not sell a succession of partial tickets, but that does not mean I cannot travel on them. After all, all I would have to do in theory is just get of the train and then on the same train in Domodossola...

@KVB its my work to know that... i have access to the tariffs at work.

the problem with the EC trains CH-IT is that in italy they are only sold as global tarif, you can't buy a ticket domodossola-milano when not starting your trip there. the ticket (wich automaticly is the reservation) has to be issued for the whole trip. that's why there are reduced global tarifs for passholders (swisspass, GA, interrail etc.).
as swiss and italian conductors do talk to each other and have access to the reservation lists they know who got on a train where and of course will check that you have got the correct ticket for the entire trip.

@mabu: An what happens if I get off in Domodossola and immediately on again? And how do you use "reservation lists" to check if people aren't "cheating" when reservations are anonymous.

But the disccusion is pretty much moot I think. AFAIK a ticket Domodossola - Milano is the same price as a ticket Brig - Milano for someone with a pass valid in Switzerland...

You would have to use another train to domodossola. in any other case you have to get a through global price. how to use reservation lists? let that be the "problem" of the train crew....

as i said in an earlyer post: it is always possible to cheat, but only bad people do so. or not? ;-)

@mabu. It's not about cheating :-) It's more about convenience. A domestic ticket to Domodossola I can get out of a ticket machine in Milano in less than a minute. For an international ticket I have to queue up... And you can buy domestic tickets for the EC trains without problem, so on both segments I'll have a ticket in my posession that is valid. I wouldn't call that cheating.