Bali Travel Forum

Hello all,

I have come across this forum and it seems like the community here is very helpful so I have a question or two I would like to ask if I may.

I work for an IT Consulting firm and 100% of my work is remote internet connection based. That being said I would like to know the best route of staying in Bali for up to 6 months or longer for me and my family of 4?

Is this even possible for a non Bali Citizen? If so what options do I have available?

From what I have gathered the maximum time you can stay on the island is 6 months and that is IF you happen to already know someone on the island that is willing to "sponsor" you. Is there another way? (besides expensive visa runs)?

I understand reasons for visa restrictions.. but I don't have to like them :)
I suppose if I lived in paradise I would want to restrict the crowds myself.

Thank you in advance for any advice/help.

Best regards,
Eric

http://www.immigrationindonesia.com/

The above Link will give you information about entry requirements for anyone wanting to live/earn their living in Bali.
( I believe certain sets of rules have to be followed to obtain entry to paradise too!)

Good Luck.

Hi,
Suggest you also post on www.balitravelforum.com
From what I understand there are agents on Bali like Bali Ide who can help you with getting a social visa that allows you to stay for 6 months- the initial 60 days and then extensions of 30 days plus appropriate fees and this social visa extended up to 4 times.
Check out this recent post about social visa
http://www.balitravelforum.com/archive200901/16916.html
Pamela

Thanks for the replies so far.

From what I can tell the links sent are similar to the information I have already found. I just don't think 6 months will be long enough. I suppose I could do a visa run but with a family of 4 that is pretty costly.

I am looking for a way to live in Bali longer term (2-5 years) without holding a job in Bali. I already have a full time job with a US based company and it is 100% remote so long as I have a internet connection I am good.

Has anyone had similar experience with this before?

Thanks again,
Eric

I do not think there is a regulation covering your case. But youo may try to post your question on the "Living in Indonesia Forum" (http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39) and see what they come up with.

Theo

Hi,
This is a very grey area regarding staying and living here, with or without a job.

First of all whichever visa for however long, you will need an Indonesian sponsor to stay here for longer than 30 days, even for the 60 day visa (extendable 4 times to a maximum of 6 months, as PPamela says) you still have to provide an Indonesian sponsor (which isn't that difficult, some agents even provide the sponsor as part of their services, and I would provide sponsorship for you, if you needed it) and maybe proof of an onward journey (return ticket, or ticket to another destination). This is not always asked for, but if they ask and you don't have one they can refuse you the visa.)

The Visa211 (6 months)does not allow you to earn money, from a job in Indonesia whilst in Indonesia on the visa, but (and this is the grey area) as you are not going to be actually working in a physical job in Indonesia or earning money, by working then it is quite possible you wouldn't have any problems. However there are some (Tax authorities for one example) who might still view it as working and earning money, and may wish to tax you on your earnings.(or at least on how much you bring into Indonesa (Bank Transfers etc)

All of your family would have to apply for the visa211 seperatly, and renew seperatly every month after the 60 day period. To renew through an agent (as PPamela also suggests) is going to be around 500,000rp per person per month for 4 months, so that's possibly around 8,000,000rp (maybe less if you shop around)every 6 months, you then have to leave and come back if you want to that is, and start again. This type of visa is not transferrable to any other type of visa.

There are other visas available more suitable for individuals, rather than families, so not really applicable for your requirements.

The only other visa available to you is for a temporary resident visa, this type of visa lasts for 1 year, when you apply for the visa, you can include your family on it, so no need for multiple visa's. You can renew this visa annualy 3 times without leaving Indonesia, however on the 4th renewal you have to go out.

This type of visa is usually associated with a working visa, and in this situation it is fairly straightforward to get, as long as you fulfill the requirements of obtaining a working permint

HOWEVER AS YOU won't be applying for a working permit, then the obtaining of a temporary stay visa, is more complicated and less easy to obtain, (the requirements for why you wish to stay, and how you can afford to stay in Indonesia without working are very rigourous and applied to the letter by the authorities.)

Prices for obtaining a Temporary stay visa range from around 10,000,000RP to get your first one, then around 6,000,000rp for renewal every year.

If you stay here for longer than the 6 months, whether you are earning money working or not, you will be liable to a fiscal tax minimum payment 2,500,000rp per adult; maybe more if they decide you have actually earned money (you might choose not to pay this voluntarily, and it is easily avoided if you don't wish to pay it, but if they find you, you would be given a short period of time to pay the tax plus interest plus a penalty, if you still don't pay it then you would be deported and black listed.

This tax hasn't always been vigourusly persued in the past, but the new Govenor of Bali, the Tax authorities, the Police and the Indonesian Government are beginning to make changes, which now include the persuing of these taxes (especially for foreign people who come here and try to avoid paying what they should.)

So all in all it isn't as easy and simple as some people imagine (and it shouldn't be easy or simple)

You really need to talk to experts. Looking on various web-sites and forums is ok to get a general picture, but the information is sometimes a long time out of date, or is only someone's individual experience, and might not even apply to your situation. There are many agents in Bali who can do it for you (obviously for a fee)and you should use them, for any of the visa's available to you because it will be done right, with no problems at a later date which might work out more expensive for you if something does go wrong.

The link given to you from Ranger49 is a good one, and the company is a very good agent in Bali, however they specialise in company formations, and would probable reccommend this as your option (which is expensive). Bali IDE as PPamela suggests is probably the best one and many expat use their services for all visa requirements. Bali Mode is another company that can help you.

There are many other factors you also need to consider, and I apologize if it sounds patronising, but Living and Working in Bali (even working from home as you would be) is not remotly the same as coming here on vacation, and can be difficult both socially and culturally, and also is not as cheap as many people think, (especially for foreign visitors)schooling for example for your family (not knowing ages etc but assuming they still would go to school) can be expensive especially for foreign visitors, Long term rental accommodation especially for a family of your size is not easily available, and what there is available is usually expensive (depending on area and location)or is in areas where there are not so many other foreign people living,and my experience with other people who have tried living in the more remote areas without much contact with other foreign visitors is that they feel isolated and alone after a couple of months and start to look elswhere.

I am really not trying to put you off, or put obsticles in your way, mearly trying to help you be aware of what some of the things you can expect.

Personally there isn't anywhere else in the World I would want to be to live and to work, it is a wonderful place and way of life. But it isn't easy and it isn't always Paradise.

I wish you good luck in your plannig and hope we see you in Bali one day.

Hi Eric. If you haven't done so yet, research current reliability, availability, cost and speed of a broadband connection (Telkom Speedy). Might not be what you require.

Hi,
Internet connections are gnenerally very good nowadays, there are quite a few providers now who offer unlimited connection at 1MB (downloards/uploads obviously less),

Speedy (not as fast as the name implies)for unlimited home use has to be connected through a telephone line and is not available in some places. Also the service deteriorates as the day draws out, with the peak (therefore the slowest connection) being from 3:00pm to 8:00pm. The cost is around 750,000rp per month, plus the standing charge for the telephone line around 80,000rp per month.
A modem (unless your pc has one built in) is going to be around 800,000, if you wish to use a wireless connection, then you need to ask with speedy first which make and model of wireless routers their system supports (for example in the Kuta area it doesn't support the buffalow wireless router, which is strange because it is supported in other parts of Denpasar.)Wireless routers start at around 1,000,000rp (without built in modem) to around 3,000,000rp for one with a modem built in.

There is a new service available from Speedy, I don't know the details yet, but it is basically a card which you rent, you insert it into the pc card reader, and bingo there is a connection without the need for a telephone line. Don't know the exact details how it works or the cost yet because it is so new.

If Speedy is not available in the area you finally settle in there are other providers who can connect through either satelite or fibre optic cable. (cable obviously depends on if it is available in the area)

There are 3 main platers in the satellite internet provider.

Indostat this is the most expensive of the providers, and you pay for the connection speed. The higher the speed the higher the monthly cost. (can reach upto 3,000,000rp pr month.

Global Extreem, this is probably the second biggerst provider for satellite connection, however their coverage isn't so great especially in the built up areas, and sometimes it needs the installation of a large mast the size of some radar masts to be installed on your site. Costs from 750,000rp for limited connection, up to 8,000,000rp for peer to peer dedicated unlimited and very high speed. You have to purchase/rent their boxes for connection.

Blueline are a good provider, and use fibre optic as well as satellite. Prices start at around 800,000rp per month again there is a small problem sometimes with the size of the satellite needed to get a signal.

Other considerations - regarding service of PC be it laptop, desk top or whatever, is that there isn't any major service centre in Bali, in almost all cases the machine will have to be sent to either Jakarts or Surabaya for any repairs. one of our laptops (a HP Satellite something or other) has been in Surabaya now for 3 weeks awaiting the installation of something as simple as a new wireless network card.
- reliability of electricity supply, all to often we lose the electricity supply without notice and sometimes for the best part of a whole day. This is a problem caused by the strain of the grid provided to Bali from Java/Surabaya. Although it might not seem too bad, and maybe the opportunity to tke the day off, it can sometimes be very inconvienient especially 1/2 way through a transmission. Not a world shattering situation but still one worth considering (the installation of a small emergency generator solves the problem.)

Hi BR, I am always amazed by the facts that you have at your fingertips. Remarkable. You could probably write The Practical Guide to Bali in a few days if you wanted.

PL&L Ha Ha dont have time too busy replying to forum questions LOL. Hope you are ok

By the way just an update on the new card from speedy, you don't actually rent it as I previously said, you actually buy the card with a built in transmitter, then you purchase time (a bit like topping up mobile phones). Still don't know prices yet,as the sales people at speedy haven't got back to me, but connection is rumoured to be around 350rp per minute, which doesn't really make it applicable to Bali Bound requirements, But what it might spell the end of is a lot of Internet Cafe's that charge higher prices than that; as more and more people are bringing their lap tops on holiday with them, and lap tops are becoming more readilly available and affordable to locals now.

I have also spoken at great length today with a couple of business associates of mine who are experts in Visa's (no connection with any of the agents I mentioned previously; I assure you)it would appear that it is now not possible for the issuance of a non working visa for longer than 6 months, unless you are 55 years of age or older, or a foreigner married to an Indonesian, or the legitimate child of an Indonesian who has been living abroad.

The Training/Research/Education visa's, temporary permits that were available before are no longer being issued from the Manpower department in Jakarta, unless there is sponsorship from the applicants employers and an Indonesian authority/company/department

So you are stuck I am afraid with the 6 month (social cultural visa)which means that you have to do the visa run every 6 months.

The only other way would be to come in as a forign investor, but that is expensive and you would have to invest in an Indonesian Company around 100,000 US$ (depending on the company's trade and operations),

wow thank you all for the replies. I stopped getting email notifications but decided to check up anyhow.

Besar you are a wealth of information. Thank you.

Due to the visa stipulations and recent meetings at work I was also considering actually hiring on 1-4 Local Balinese citizens as executive assistants that would help me there locally. Since this would be considered doing business in Bali I wonder if you Besar or anyone else think this would be enough to be considered for a KITAS type or doing business in Bali type of visa?

Thoughts? Considerations?

Thanks!
-Eric

Hello
Unfortunatly there is now no way for you to stay here for longer than 6 months, without applying for a temporary resident visa and a working permit. Doing business here (depending on certain conditions/restrictions on a business visa is ok but the visa only lasts for 6 months anyway, and your family wouldn't qualify so they would have to still apply for the 60 day extendable visa

You can of course use the services of anyone with the nessessary skills to work for you, even if you don't live in Indonesia, but as you work for an American company if you employed them as your "Executive Assistants" or whatever other title is apporopriate would they not be classed as employee of that company!! If you wanted them to work for you outside of your company, they would be classed as self employed or agents, so not directly employed by you. (Without a Kitas or being a manager of an Indonesian Company, or here on aretirement visa you personally cannot employ anyone) you would still only be able to enter on a Business visa, which is intended only for the purpose of
# To discuss matters in the framework of trade transactions
# To make on the spot observations and to discuss trade commodities for the import-export business
# Business activity not engaged as an employee
# To join an international show/exhibition
# To join a meeting held by the head office or representative in Indonesia
# To discuss with Indonesian enterprises matters related to capital or commodity production by overseas enterprise
# To investigate possibilities for merchandising in the framework of capital investment with prospective partners in Indonesia.

To stay for longer you need a temporary resident visa, and a working Permit (Kitas) To get one of these you need the sponsorship of an Indonesian Company, this could be a company that you create yourself (using at least 2 Indonesian Names, as shareholders, and main directors) this route is obviously more expensive, and has other issues, like licensing, property (office etc) permits,tax returns, salaries, employee benefits etc, mimimum wages etc. The initial costs are enourmous, and the annual manpower fee of 1,200 US$ means that you would be better doing the visa run every 6 months, it would still work out cheaper over the period of time you wanted to be here.

There are many people here who do business legally and illegally and only have the Business visa, or the 60 day extendable visa, and do the visa run every 6 months, there are some who get caught (especially if they do the visa run too many times without a break) and they are then politly asked to obtain the correct visa's,and given a reasonable amount of time to do so. Some do others don't (either they are totally stupid, tired of living and working in Indonesia, or are just plain disrespectfull and think they know better)they are then asked to leave and don't come back. (maybe blacklisted for 5 years)

By the way, when are you thinking of making this big leap into Paradise, I ask only because it is rumoured (and I stress only a rumour)that the authorities may soon consider stopping the Visa on Entry for 30 days to try and encourage more visitors during this economic crisis, at the moment it isn't clear if they will allow people to enter and stay as long as they like, or if they will just waive the fee, but still issue 30 (or possible 60 day visa's for free. So it may be that later on in the year you might be able to come and stay here for a lot longer than at present, without the need for a visa.

Hello again, I am a little bit confused, having thought about your situation a little more deeply.

When you say you want to employ locals to help you with your work, and you work for an IT Consulting Company, does that mean you are wanting to come to Bali, and maybe generate some IT work in Bali ?for your company in America using the internet or maybe using the "Executive Assistants" as lead generators/sales people.

If this is so, then you shouldn't really do this on a business visa. You can only do this type of business with a (Kitas)working permit. To attempt to generate business or work in Indonesia, this way is taking a very big personal risk, not only for you but also for your family.

Visa runs every 6 months are not all that expensive nowadays with many of the budget airlines having plenty of special offers from Bali to Singapore or KL.

Thank you again Besar,

I agree Besar in regards to starting a Bali corporation. I would only consider starting a Bali based corporation as a last resort because as you have said it would be the most expensive and the most risk involved.

So according to what you said in your last post if I want to hire (legally)any local Balinese help with any work releated tasks I will need a KITAS work permit and state there is a lot of risk involved with that. Out of curiosity what sort of risk other than monetary? (you mention "this way is taking a very big personal risk, not only for you but also for your family. ") All I would be doing is hiring a couple personal assistants to handle office administrative tasks.


As far as time line to visit I am planning most this well in advance as not to be in a time crunch. I foresee coming after the next monsoon season at the earliest.

The rumor of eliminating visa fees/expirations you briefly mentioned is interesting and I would like to keep an eye on that for sure.

The matter of Visas is my primary concern right now and the first thing I must figure out since I would like to be in Bali for at LEAST a year. The rest are just matters of scheduling and money.

Thank you again,
Eric

It seems you want to move to, and settle, with your family 0f 4, in Bali in order to continue to earn your living by selling your services - as an IT Consultant employing local people as assistants to enhance and grow your business.

Not sure what your actual, original travel question really was but this thread now seems to be about the moral decision as to whether you enter and settle in the country to earn your living, with the help of locally resourced personnel. To do this it seems clear you need to be in possession of all the legally appropriate documentation and approval for such activity - or find a means to circumvent the Indonesian regulations and take the risk that has been outlined to you.

Hi Ranger,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I want to stay in Bali for longer than 6 months for sure. (approx a year) but I definitely do not want settle down there permanently. I just think it would be difficult to really get an appreciation for Balinese culture and the area in approximately 6 months.

Initially my question was just about how to visit Bali for about a year without all the visa runs. If I had to employ and generate revenue for Bali in the process by hiring Local assistants I was more than willing to do that however it seems more of a risk than needed according to Besar than just doing a visa run with me and my family at the end of 6 months.

Thank you very much for you input. Guess its time to start shopping around for some reputable visa service companies and see what develops from there. Thank you all again!

-Eric

Best of Luck. Could be worth it in the long run.

Hi again,
Well as is being said this thread is in danger of overwhelming the issue, so I will try one last answer, based on your latest thinkings

You have only one choice if you want to stay here legally for longer than the 6 months working or not; doing business or not; It is not a last resort it is your only option.

######Temporary Resident Visa; with Working Permit.

To obtain this you need sponsorship from an Indonesian Company.
The Indonesian Company can be either: an existing PT (private company) or a PMA (foreign Investment ompany)

It can be obtained one of three ways:

#Some agencies can provide you with sponsorship included in their fee (it depends on if they have any arrangements with the appropriate type of company) costs around 2,000 US$ (includes payment to sponsorship company)+ extra to put your family on the temporary resident visa around 600 US$ + Manpower tax 1,200 US$, + fiscal tax multiplied by 2 adults (payable even if not working)500 US$(Minimun)

Total around 4,300 US$
***This is only intended as a guide, the prices are a general figure, and may be less and may be more depending on agency and services rendered

Time needed to set up .....around 6 weeks for the temporary visa, then another 2 weeks after for the working permit. Within 3 days of arrival into Indonesia on the temporary resident visa you and your wife would have to go to immigration for fingerprinting, then to the police for photgraphs, the blue immigration book, the yellow police report, and the local registration (banjar) documents are issued after that. The working permit is issued around 2 weeks after that.

##You (or your company in America) could set up your own PT Company using at least 2 Indonesian Citizen's as shareholders and Main Directors (foreign workers cannot be Directors or shareholders of a PT company)

Costs for settin up a PT company are going to be around

***17,000,000rp (1,500 US$)for the Notaris fee(company set up articles of association etc)depending on which level of company you require (there are 3 levels a medium size company is the minimum requirement for sponsoring foreign Employees.
***Share holders investment of at least 100,000,000rp (8,500 UD$)depending on type of company size of company, and operational location of company. This is some of the risk you take, because the company and shares are held by Indonesians, (using your money)and they could at anytime take the company away from you, without any compensation.
***Registration Building License fee's (again depends on type of operation and mimimum rquirements) but around 12,000,000rp 1,000 US$ would be about normal

Total around 11,000 US$. (again only a general guide)
There are other implications and ongoing costs (obviously) for operating a company but no need to go into them in detail at this point.

Time needed to set up, around 10 - 12 weeks to set up the company, then the application for you to work in the company can be made, same timescales as above to set up and issue

###Set up a PMA Company. Foriegn Investors can be shareholders/directors of some types of PMA Companies, and have full control of that company. You may still have to have an Indonesian name as a shareholder,with a stake in the PMA it depends on the type of company. It ranges from a 50% share between Indonesian Citizen and Foreign Investors to 100% shareholding by the Foreign Investor.

It is difficult to give costs as the variables and Investment requirements are wide ranging, but somewhere around 100,000 US$ would be normal.
The ongoing costs and regulations for PMA companies are stringent, and enforced more rigourusly than a PT, but it is a safer way to do business.

Time to set up around 8 -12 weeks with same timescales for the temporary resident visa and working permit as above.

You could do it on a business visa or a social cultural visa, however this visa only lasts for 6 months and would only allow you to work from home PROVIDING YOU DIDN'T EARN MONEY OR DO BUSINESS that would be ILLEGAL, and the big personal risk isn't necessarily monetary,

If you are caught living or working illegally in Indonesia, the concequenses could be dire. First of all if discovered you would probably just be asked to apply for the right type of visa and permits, and maybe a fine to pay. There isn't a difinitive response/action to being discovered, but it usually goes

#You would be given a reasonable amount of time to do this, and maybe even allowed to carry on with the buisness or working.

##After the reasonable time if you still haven't complied wuth the request, you will be given a firmer warning, maybe issued with another fine, and less time to comply.

###On the third strike so to speak, depending on severity of the case

either

*****You & and your family would be deported.

or

*****you would be placed under arrest and first put inside a police cell, awaiting a court appearance,(maybe 2 or 3 days) before being moved to the real jail in Denpasar (can be up to 6 months before you get a court hearing) You may face a further large fine & deportation or a fine, a long jail sentence (taking into account time already spent inside), followed by deportation, meanwhile your family would also be deported leaving you in Indonesia.

Thats what I meant by "taking a very big personal risk, not only for you but also for your family."

That is of course ONLY IF YOU GET CAUGHT, there are many here who do things this way and get away with it for a long time.

We don't have monsoon seasons in Bali only rainy season (nothing like monsoon weather), as we are now in the middle of the rainy season which normally finishes around April, is your planning is to be here after April 2010 ?, because to be honest the way legislation is changing in Indonesia regarding many things,(buisness opportunities, land ownership, residency etc) all of this information and regulations may be completly out of date by then.

You say one of your reasons for wanting to stay for longer than 6 months is "it would be difficult to really get an appreciation for Balinese culture and the area in approximately 6 months". I would suggest that 6 months is plenty of time, and if you really want to stay for a year only doing 1 visa run is definatly the best option.

Bali IDE are the best to give you advice Ayu is the girls name who deals with this type of Visa Telephone +62 361 726200 They do not however offer the option of providing sponsorship. They will probably tell you the same thing as I have, and can help set up a business for you.

Bali Mode (offices throughout Bali)Tel office in Kuta +62 361 765 162 they offer the option to provide sponsorship with an established PT company (depending on which type of company you can work for).

Bali Consulting Services based in Ubud Tel +62-361-972-107 are very good and are run by an expat, who like me understands the needs concerns and thinking of the foriegn investor new to Indonesian regulations etc, and the way Indonesian people and authorities work.

My final suggestion to you, provided you definatly want to go for the 1 year stay option, would be to come here for a short holiday (maximum 60 days), bring your lap top so you can still work remotly, look around the different places, visit with people in the know, and go and talk with some of the agents and other expats who are doing something similar over here. If you are still clear and enthusiastic, you can start the process while you are here, using an agent over here, return to America, and await for your company formation, visa and permit to be granted..whichever opton you decide.

If you decide want to take the 6 months (social Cultural Visa 211)option for you and your family, you need a sponsor. Normally a sponsorship from an Indonesian is only a formality, but technically the sponsor is also agreeing to take responsibility for your financial position and responsibility for your actions whilst in Indonesia, (which if you get caught doing something illegal, can have concequenses for the sponsor). So my suggestion to you would be for you to apply for the "Business Visa", which allows you to investigate the possibilities of doing business here, You can use the services of local people for office duties etc, they won't be employed by you, they would be freelance or self employed and you would pay them on a daily/lump sum basis. Your family would then apply to come on the Visa 211 Social Cultural Visa, for which I could provide a sponsorship letter.

wow...

Thank you Besar for your VERY informative reply. You summed up about everything I have been able to find on various sites in your last reply. After long talks with my family we are probably going to stay no longer than 6 months for our first visit. We will try for our 211 Social Cultural Visas and go from there.

The only reason we were looking to hire or do business in Bali was to extend our stay but as you have explained in detail it would be costly and put us at personal/financial risk I am not willing to take at the moment. Thank you again for laying the options out so clearly.

My wife while looking very forward for our visit does agree with you in that she thinks we will get the chance to meet a lot of new people and get enough time there within 6 months to absorb the culture and enjoy ourselves and new friends.

To others that replied thank you as well as all of your replies have been very helpful.

I will post an update in time.



P.S. Besar thank you again and I may be in contact with you sooner than later.

Sincerely,
Eric