Moscow Travel Forum

im planning a trip to japan without flying.
i have my journey from moscow roughly planned, but i am unsure of the best way to get to moscow.
does anybody have experience with this?

I am looking for the cheapest method to get from the uk, (i will start from crewe) to moscow, but there are a lot of choices. helsinki/frankfurt/warsaw.....etc.

also, visas. which ones would i need? just russian and belerusian?

thanks

Have you allready looked at the following site?

http://www.seat61.com/

Seat61 does not know much about CITY-STAR tickets and you need precisely these till Vladik.
He is correct about ships.

Look for a good London-Praha bus first. That is better (=cheaper) than the train.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Agency_(Brno)

This is their web site:

http://www.studentagencybus.com/

You goal is to reach Bratislava.
In Bratislava buy Slovakia-Ukraina-Russia CITY-STAR ticket, that will take you from Bratislava to Moscow and later Vladivostok for 172 Euro.

Please look at corresponding Russia deal I made recently.

You won't need Belarus visa, only Russian. Best source is www.waytorussia.com

This is the link to the deal and there is also explained, how it works for one, two or more passengers:
http://deals.virtualtourist.com/viewDeal-19733-906-1--Russia-viewDeal.html

You wrote "im planning a trip to japan without flying."

Pardon me, but Japan is an island nation. So after you get advice on the best way to get to Moscow, then what? By definition you get to Japan only by air or by sea. Believe me, I've been wrong before, but unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there are ferries to Japan--but perhaps there are some from Korea...? Maybe from Kamchatka Peninsula/Vladivostok? Or China? Anybody have definitive info?

Till Vladivostok by far the cheapest is the CITISTAR bought in Slovakia. It is as said, 172 Euro - ROUND-TRIP. Of course, it can be used either way as one-way. CITY-STAR tickets allow unlimited stopovers within 2 month time of validity, but for sleeper accommodation the berth surcharge is usually added.

It is important to note, the sleeper resrvations can be done in Slovakia or even in UK at the ATOC international ticket agencies. Many cashiers do not know how to do it properly, but some know.

More info also here: http://citystarticket.blogspot.com/

The ferries from Vladivostok to Japan are sailing on regular basis.

http://www.bisintour.com/

Prices:

http://www.bisintour.com/rus-price.php

@Ex-Mainer: The passenger transport between Japan and USSR/Russia is a very old tradition. It did not even stop during worst of Cold War. In the fact, tickets were sold even in Europe, both "socialist" and "capitalist" countries.

After air travel became much cheaper the passenger transport did not cease - just the opposite! Now the ferries transport Russian tourists to Japan to the weekly used car fair and many return with their new purchase.

The CITY-STAR ticket is a relatively unknown railpass to Russia. There are many CST tickets, not only to Russia but also to different countries in Europe. It's the only remianing good deal with railpasses - all other railpasses became mostly a turist trap for overseas visitors. Bu coincidence, CST is never marketed in english - the railroads try to keep it to locals. Legally there is no limitation who can use it.

These tickets are by a magnitude cheaper than Russian domestic prices. It is also important to note, the sleeper reservations sold outside of Russia to foreigners are not just cheaper than the tickets in Russia, but the food is usually free. In Russia the most expensive tickets are being sold with food service. International pricing does not know the difference, so the foreigner usually is assigned to the best car - the one where the places are sold with the food service included.

Because the Russian dining cars esp. on "Firmennyj" trains are not cheap and the travel is pretty long, it's worth to buy 1st class ticket "SV" for 1.5 time the price because while the 2nd class has the cold food, the 1st class has ALL food included.

Compare: in the main season I did see "SV" (1st class) DOMESTIC prices between Moscow and Vladivostok go above 25000 Rouble mark (over $1000) EACH way. However, the same price on the CITY-STAR ticket is only 258 Euro ROUND-TRIP (plus the reservation).

By demand, created the ship sailing deal from Russia to Japan, so it won't be lost in the forum:

http://deals.virtualtourist.com/viewDeal-19846-1392-1--Japan-viewDeal.html

Thanks for the responces.
As i said, i have a rough plan for my travels after moscow. I'll give you some more details!

I would get the train to Beijing and travel northern China for 4-6 weeks. I would then get a ferry from Tianjin or Shanghai to Osaka. (they run once or twice a week for around £100). I would stay with a friend in osaka for 4-6 weeks, (with a little bit of traveling around japan). I would then get a flight back to Manchester.


Yes, I have read a lot the seat61.com site. It seems to be missing some pieces of infomation, (eg; it fails to mention that you can get a ferry from Qingdao to Japan). That said, it seems like a fanastic site, and has a lot of info on european rail travel.

Of course, i would love a bargain, but if it means a substantial ammount of organising, paperwork, and the possibility of getting stranded in Bratislava then it may not be worth the saved £100 or so. Getting to Bratislava and hoping to get a ticket to russia on the cheap seems a bit of a risk.

I had considered going to Vladivostok and getting the ferry to Fushiki. This would cost around £200 and then i would have to get from Fushiki to Osaka, but i really want to start my Japanese travels in Osaka. Trains are not cheap in Japan (and yes, I will be getting some JR rail passes before I go!). Also, this would bypass a 6 week stay in China!
I am open to the idea of coming back to the UK through Fushiki/Vladivostok/Moscow though. It's just i can imagine it to be a lot more likely I would get a flight back this time.


I thing its safe to rule out Vladivostok, and aim for Beijing.


This citystar thing looks quite interesting, but they will only finish in a Russian destination. Plus I think I only want a one-way. A normal train ticket from crewe to moscow looks like it will cost me £150-200, and there's also the £100 (ish) for the Belarussian and Russian visa. (I will also need a mongolian and Chinese visa soon too).


Anyone got any infomation on the buses? I checked out the cheap 'london to prague bus'. £50!

Getting a train from crewe to london, to brussels, to cologne, to warsaw, to moscow may seem like the best bet.
The best eurostar price i found for Crewe to Brussels is £56.

Thanks for all the input.
Tim

Unfortunately, there is not much with Russia or China what would not require organizing. You will need to spend considerable time to organize your tickets and your visas or you have to spend a considerable money. Given sufficient money it is possible to travel almost the next day without any organization but it's probably not what you are looking for.

In this long essay I am concentrating on Vladivostok - it is simpler and faster, even if the ferry costs more. The way through China is more difficult because the 'platskarta' to China are not in European reservation system, one has to do more tricks or pay more. What all it means, read further. Also you may read my home page.

An international ticket consists of two pieces of paper:
- the 'route ticket' which tells how you travel on the rails
- the seat/bed reservation slip called in Russian 'platskarta'.

This is so in most part of Europe and also in Asia. A North Korean ticket from P'yongYang to Ha Noi does not differ much from a German overnight ticket from Amsterdam to Vienna. This is done by purpose, so everything looks uniform.

Your goal is to ensure, you have all 'platskarta' regardless, do you have the 'route ticket' or not. On a "reservation obligatory" trains/cars in, say, Italy, Russia or China a mere 'route ticket' is worthless - you need the reservation. If the train is full, you are out of luck.

The CITY-STAR is merely the 'route ticket'. You need it to pay the host companies for using the rails. It's a set price. It does not pay for anything above sitting in a vinyl-covered uncomfortable chair. If you want more or if you have to have more, you have to arrange 'platskarta'.

Good news: the international-priced 'platskarta' prices for Russian domestic trains and trains to/from "West" are the same. You can buy it even in UK at the GOOD railway agencies. The 'platskarta' from Slovakia into Russia can be bought in UK 60 days in advance, the 'platskarta' within Russia 45 days in advance.

Once you have your 'platskarta' and your ship ticket - you can get the Russian transit visa. You won't need the 'route ticket' until you board the train and there is no limitation how many 'route tickets' are issued. You can buy the CITY-STAR indeed in the last minute in Slovakia. You need to have 'platskarta' well in advance tough.

'Platskarta' can be bought in any country in Europe, also in UK. It is independent of the 'route ticket'. Here is a sample of a 'platskarta' Moscow-Irkutsk bought in Switzerland:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/ticket/20060703_SBB_Moskva_Irkutsk_340CH.jpg

Prices of the 'platskarta' bought in Europe:

1) Zilina-Moscow = 19 Euro, Kosice-Moscow = 19 Euro, Zvolen-Moscow = 19 Euro (3-bed compartment)
2) Moscow-Vladivostok = 145 Euro (in 4-bed compartment, in 2-bed compartment the cost is double)

You often will hear from the ticket agents in the UK, they "cannot" reserve Russian domestic tickets. This is plain incorrect - they are just lazy. They have the necessary documents, here it is (in Russian and German) with all trains they can reserve.

http://www.uic.asso.fr/download.php/passagers/reservationoverview-RZD-2008.pdf

It is very important to enforce, ATOC agent(s) in UK will try to reserve for you the 'platskarta' with CORRECT train numbers. For instance, for Moscow-Vladivostok it's not "Train number 2" as it's commonly known, but the train number 002MJ or 2MJ, see the page 25 on the linked document.

The prices of Moscow-Beijing are calculated differently and unlike the Russian domestic 'platskarta' like Moscow-Vladivostok or 'platskarta' to/from the "West" (Zilina) cannot be reserved from the UK directly - you have to go through very expensive middleman. I will try to do much more as I return from USA back to Europe in the middle of this year, but until than you are on the mercy of the ATOC agents. They aren't that bad, try to speak with an international ticket agent of the today or in few days. I am curious, what will be your experience. At worst, these can be sent from Germany (German Rail does this kind of ticketing) or you may wait till I am back to Hungary.

Also you may contact Helmut, http://citystarticket.blogspot.com/ he will sell you CST tickets and 'platskarta'.

***** the Chinese part will come leater, I would like you to make sure, you understand the simpler Russian domestic/European tickets first *****

Fantastic. Thank you.
yes, i understand what you are saying. an interesting read.

i have looked at getting as bus to bratislava (£70).
from bratislava i could get a citystar ticket, and use it to get to Irkutsk.

i've had a look at the blogspot, and correct me if im wrong, but after you add the 100 euros for the 2 sleepers from slovakia to irkutsk, the 255 euros for the citystar route pass from bratislava to russia, that works out at £268.

currently, i have found that i can get to brussels from crewe for £56.
from brussels, its either:

1) cologne, warsaw, moscow.
Home to Russia = £160-220 (+60 for Belarusian visa).

2) berlin, moscow.
£190 (+60 for Belarusin visa).

3) cologne, copenhagen, stockholm, (ferry to either) helsinki or tallian, the train to moscow.
£240-260.

4)Get the £70 Bus from home to slovakia, and citystar tickets to irkutsk.
this would be £270 total, but i would still have a route pass to irkutsk.

have i worked these out correctly?


to give you an idea of prices.....to get to warsaw, i can go on the bus for £65 (takes 34hrs), or train for £105 (takes about 24hrs).

- Yes, you can use the CITY-STAR ticket to get from Bratislava to Kiev, from Kiev to Moscow, from Moscow to Irkutsk, from Irkutsk to Vladivostok as you like.

- For sleepers from (western)Slovakia-Moscow is actually 21 Euro.
I verified, 19 Euro is only from Kosice. That means, the second class sleeper berth price from Bratislava to Irkutsk will total 21 + 78 = 99 Euro. You are correct.

- The CITY-STAR price is the same to Irkutsk or to Vladivostok. For two people it's 258 Euro all the way. If you plan to de-train at Irkutsk for the sightseeing, you will need to purchase the Irkutsk-Vladivostok sleeper reservation (= 68 Euro/person). That will take you till your destination.
If you do not plan to de-train in Irkutsk, the total Bratislava-Vladivostok price for two will be:

(21 Euro * 2) + (145 Euro * 2) + 258 Euro = 590 Euro or 295 Euro/person

If you de-train in Irkutsk, the total price will be:

(21 Euro * 2) + (78 Euro * 2) + (68 Euro * 2) + 258 Euro = 592 Euro or 296 Euro/person

One more solution: if you doing it cleverly, you can board the North Korean sleeper (1842 Rbl/person) instead of Russian sleeper, the total will be than (21 * 2) + (53 * 2) + 258 = 402 Euro or 203 Euro/person (you will need to tranfer yourself from Ussuriisk to Vladivostok for few Euro tough because the N.Korean car is de-coupled at Ussuriisk).

These prices are complete prices from Bratislava till Vladivostok where the ferry departs from.

FYI: the said prices are correct. Russian railway drastically raised the prices recently, not sure your data is up-to-date. I know following - let's calculate the prices based on recently released East-West tariff,

http://mav-start.hu/res/Kelet-Nyugat_dijszabas_2008.pdf, page 49 for Belarus, page 60 for Russia, also using CIV prices from www.jizdenka.cz to determine prices from Berlin or Warszawa till border with Belarus. All prices per person.

a) Berlin->Brest(border) is 50.60 Euro/person, excluding the sleeper
b) Warszawa->Brest(border) is 16.80 Euro/person, excl. the sleeper.

c) Brest(border)-Osinovka(border) is 615 tarif-km on BCh, base ticket is 38.80 Euro/person
d) Osinovka(border)-Moscow-Irkutsk-Vladivostok is 9748 tarif-km on RZD, 246.40 Euro/person

We have from Berlin: 50.60+38.80+246.40 = 335.8 Euro for the ticket only, add 19 Euro for the sleeper to Moscow and same 145 Euro from Moscow, we get 335.8+19+145 = 499.8 Euro PRO PERSON. Add the costs of Belarus visa.

Finally, if you would like to be schocked: the Moscow-Vladivostok price in the same service can be as high as 15000 rouble (500 Euro) domestic price in the high season. For "worse" train and in the lesser season and in "platskartny" (YIKES!) class (NOT a sleeper!) it will be less, probably ca. 150 Euro/person - the Russian domestic prices are much higher than international one.

From the UK, I find RyanAir to Riga, then the overnight train to Moscow. I do this all the time; it’s by far the cheapest way.

RyanAir flights can be as little as tax only and the train costs £30-£60, depending on open/closed carriage.

Best of luck.

very late saw drumbeat`s question....anyway information for travellers:)
cheapest and easy way to get to Moscow(Domodedovo) is direct flight from London (Heathrow) by bmi.....186 pounds and russian visa.

Aha, no cheating ;) - he asked WITHOUT flying. That is not so easy.

ok:) without cheating:) to get to Moscow by bus(ecolines)....about 150 pounds....stop in Praga.