China Travel Forum

Hi

We are trying to plan our train trip to Russia as independantly as possible.

Can any one recommend a reliable agency in Beijing that can issue Russian Invitaions? or an online agency providing the service? preferrably without the need to book the train or accomodation with them.

We plan to stop in Irkutsk for a few day so will be buying the journey as separate tickets ie Beijing - Irkutsk, Irkutsk - Moscow, Moscow - St Peterburg. Is it difficult to buy 2nd class 4 berth tickets a few days in advance in Irkutsk during the month of June?

Any other tips or advise would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Suzi

Suzi,

1) The choce of buying these tickets SEPARATELY will make you lose 500 Dollar per person at least. Buy a SINGLE Beijing-Irkutsk-Moscow-SPB ticket (pink slip) and SEPARATE Beijing-Irkutsk, Irkutsk-Moscow and Moscow-SPB green slips. This will save you guys at least 500 Dollars or more, guaranteed.

2) Please visit the www.mza.ru forum for ticket questions, more exactly

http://www.mza.ru/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,73/board,5.0

There are 5-10 experts from around the world esp. with MPT tickets. Besides myself look fro Helmut, Marat and some other guys. The forum deafault language is Russian, but no one was turned back if (s)he wrote in English.

(Current topic there: Basel <--> HoChiMinh tickets, FYI.)

3) Use http://waytorussia.net for visa, but NOT for trains!

This is correct, but I would rather call it "extreme long distance ticket tricks". The savings are three to four-fold compared with conventional point-to-point tickets and we cannot spread the word fast enough.

It is also to be mentioned, that while "common" destinations like Ulan-Bator, Irkutsk and Moscow are pre-calculated, anything more than that is not. Russian Railway does calculations by computer - at least for the direct tickets, but in China these "Coupon Booklets" are done by hand. The process is very burdensome to calculate - it has to be done in the "border-to-border" manner.

The base tariff for entire system in Swiss Franc is here:

http://www.gdo.kiev.ua/files/db.php?god=2004&st=2109 (published on Ukrainian goverment web site).

This is only the "base" tariff - the price has to be calculated on each railroad using different multiplicator and multiplicator for reservation is different from the multiplicator on the through fare.

In that table the first column is the distance in km. The second column is second class ("hard") seat ticket. The third column is the first class ("soft") seat ticket. The fourth column is the open section sleeper ('plackartnyi' or 'ying wo') surcharge extra to the hard seat. The fifth column is the second class 4-bed (in Russian 'kupeinyj', there is virtually no such service in China, VietNam, Korea). The sixth column is the first-class 4-bed sleeper (only in China, Korea, VietNam, no such service in Russia anymore). The seventh column is the de-luxe first class 2-bed (Russia, China has it). The eighth column is the de-luxe single (whole compartment buy-out) price.

Now: knowing these prices say, you want to buy a Nanning-Guilin-Beijing-Zabaikal'sk-Moscow-SPB "service".
I intentionally use the word "Service" because it will consist of multiple tickets - but these will be pat of a single, universal fare and not to be confused with point-to-point tickets.

OK, now let's do the job!

1) Nanning-Guilin-Beijing-ManZhouLi (border) is 4923 km on Chinese railway, where the multiplicator factor for "base" ticket is 1.35
2) ManZhouLi (border) - Irkutsk - Moscow - SPB is 6627 + 650 = 7277 km and reently we found out, the multiplicator is 2.34

Hence, we have for the first class "sittning" (no sleeper surcharge) portion:

94.56 * 1.35 + 124.79 * 2.34 = 419.66 Swiss Franc.

This is just the base fare, there is no such train going through, but this 419.66 Swiss Franc will ensure you have a "some kind of" first class service from Nanning to St. Peterburg with as many interruptions of your journay as you want within a 2 month period.

The sleeping car extras you want:

- Nanning - Beijing is on Chinese rail, the distance is 2566 km and you want "soft sleeper" (first class, 4-bed). It is indicated in the 1/4 column and the price is 28.46 Swiss Franc multiplied by 1.13 (this is the Cinese bed multiplicator), giving you 32.16 Swiss Franc
- Beijing - Moscow is using Russian sleeper on the Zabaikal'sk route, the Russian sleeper multiplier is 1.77 and the distance is 8984 km. But the travler interrupts the journay in Irkutsk, so we have to break it at Irkutsk: Beijing-Irkutsk is 3832 km, Irkutsk-Moscow is 5152 km.

Which means the "base" price will be for sleeping in a 2-bed compartment (1/2 column) will be 61.76 + 73.03 = 134.79 Swiss Franc (instead of 108.77 as it would be without breaking the journay in Irkutsk).

Remark:

108.77 * 1.77 = 192.52 Swiss Franc, but 134.79 * 1.77 = 238.58 Swiss Franc, so the "loss" breaking in Irkutsk is a mere 46.06 Swiss Franc istead of buying a very expensive Russian domestic ticket from the scratch!!!

- Moscow - SPB is also on Russian service, the distance is 650 km, the 1/2 surcharge is 18.58 * 1.77 = 32.89 Swiss Franc

The grand total will be than from Nanning to St. Peterburg with necessary break in Beijing and Moscow as well as the break in Irkutsk due customer's wish:

419.66 + 32.16 + 238.58 + 32.89 = 723.29 Swiss Franc

This price is in soft sleepers all the way, Nanning->Beijing in 4-bed soft sleeper, the rest is in 2-bed soft sleeper via ManZhouLi (around Mongolia).

I cannot tell the exact price via Mongolia because I did not calculate the Mongolian multipliers - YET. It will come...

It's also easy to see, how much is this extra to the "basic" Beijing-Moscow service price the travel offices love to sell (because it's easy, that's why - no one bother to explain to the travellers, they potentially lose money big time that way if not using the power of international tariff properly):

Moscow-Beijing is 8984 km, broken into 6627 km in Russia and 2357 in China.

Russain rail (first class): 117.22 * 2.34
Chinese rail (first class): 57.42 * 1.35
Sleeper surcharge: 108.77 * 1.77

Total: 544.33 Swiss Franc in 2-bed soft sleeper.

Proofing it: http://www.mza.ru/content/view/143/36, we see the price is actually 552.01 Swiss Frnac, so "my" multipliers could be little "off", within 1.5%.

We immediately see: adding a stop in Irkutsk, staring from Nanning instead of Beijing and ending in St. Peterburg instead of Moscow does add less than 200 Swiss Franc to the cost of the journay. I d not even dare to calculate, how much would be the same journay broken into Chinese domestic and Russian domestic tickets plus relatively short Beijing-Irkutsk journay - yikes!!!

And all of this is just part of the trick. It's posible to actually FURTHER reduce the price - significantly.

As we see, the most expensive part of the journay is the Russian part of the "soft seat" base fare due the very high multiplicator (compare: Ukraina has 1.2, China has 1.35 - but Russia has 2.34!!!) and also due the long distance (of course).

If the travler is living in Europe, she can buy a CITY-STAR ticket in Slovakia which will be 150 Euro (= 250 Swiss Franc) from anywhere in Slovakia to anywhere in Russia (including Zabaikal'sk) ROUND-TRIP for one person and for two it will be 225 Euro (= 375 Franc) total. So essentially a couple can travel round-trip from Slovakia to Russia via Ukraina and using any routing for 187.5 Swiss Franc.

Armed with Bratislava-Kiev-SPB-Moscow-Irkutsk-Zabaikalsk(Granica) CITY-STAR tickets (as said, these are round-trip) the Russian part (124.79 * 2.34 = 292 Swiss Franc is cut, so even going one-way and not going to Slovakia the savings are 292 - 187.5 = 104.5 Swiss Franc.

Of course the best is (if the time is available) to go all the way round-trip. Not just the Russian part will be a mere 187.5 Swiss Franc pro person, but r/t from Russia to China is being sold with 20% discount, thus the total will be (assuming first class service and two people):

187.5 + ((94.56 * 1.35) * 2) * 0.8 = 187.5 + 204.25 = 391.75 (sitting only)
2 *(32.16 + 238.58 + 32.89) = 607.26 (bed surcharge both ways, assuming the same stopovers)

And getting a funny price of 999.01 Swiss Franc. This is a ROUND-TRIP an does not include roughly 30 Euro (not Franc) bed/reservation going from Bratislava to SPB.

Therefore obviously a round-trip is much better. Also further savings are by going via Mongolia because from Irkutsk on it's a Chinese sleeper service with smaller (1.13) multiplier than the Russian (1.77).

Woa, thats great, a lot of info to take in.

Thanks for all those calculations, I really appreciate all the effort you put in.

I didnt quite get though where I can buy this package of slips, any railway station in China I think you said?

Will they understand if I ask for MBT, pink and green slip tickets?

Can we extend the trip to Tallin on this MBT ticket? I assume that we need to specify the dates of travel and that the dates will be fixed?

We aren't staring from Nanning. We just want to do the following;
Beijing - Irkutsk
Irkutsk - Moscow
Moscow - St Petersburg
St Petersburg - Tallin

The class of ticket we were planning on getting was the Kupe (2nd class 4 berth) is this much cheaper than soft sleeper? and in you opinion how would our experiences differ on the two different classes?

We hope to go to the Beijing train station tomorrow to buy our ticket.

Look forward to your reply.

Many thanks again
Suzi

PS - we havent posted on the forum you recommended, the language barrier is a bit challenging and we dont have much time. :-)

The "single pink slip + many green slips" approach is known better by LüXingShe
(CITS), at the station most likely they have pre-calculated simple tickets. Go
to the main CITS office and look for international service desk rather to the
train station.

Not sure staion will help you anyway: normally they sell tickets with green slip
dated for the same day departure. If your train is not departing tomorrow, they
might be not very useful.

You can get the fare till Tallin!!! Ask exactly for that. Tallin is on the list
of cities where the tickets can be sold in China. It will be much cheaper to get
there (in China) than in Russia.

Re 2nd class ws. 1st class: Depends on. 1st class is rarely sold out, too
expensive. Of course, it's better, but it's better on Chinese train only (via
UlanBator).


Write clearly on the paper:

TICKET (red paper)

Beijing ->UlanBator -> Irkutsk -> Moscow -> St.Pterburg (Leningrad) -> Tallin

PLACKARTA (green paper), "2/4"

Beijing->Irkutsk

Irkutsk -> Moscow ("OPEN")

no need: Moscow -> St.Pterburg (you may consider to go by daytime train)
St.Pterburg - > Tallin: nothing, you don't need it.

Thanks again for the quick reply.

I have just phoned both CITS offices in beijing to inquire about this pink slip/green slips ticket and have been firmly advised that they only sell individual direct tickets to Irkustk or to Moscow etc. Do you know of anyone who has actually bought this fantastic slip of tickets recently in Beijing?

I have a feeling that when i go to the office they will deny or actually not be able to sell the ticket. Any suggestions?

- These tickets need to be calculated. They are JUST LAZY to calcualte.

- Go in person and demand the manager. Tell them, Chinese railway is in MPT (exactly THAT wording) agreement and they are OBLIGATED to sell you these tickets.

Demand MPT tariff books. Tell them, they are lying - there are MPT tariff books. Threaten, you will contact Commission IV (four) of OSJD (this is passenger traffic comission),

shpak@osjd.org.pl
tran@osjd.org.pl

Print it out: http://www.lawmix.ru/abro.php?id=1317
and tell tem, THIS is the legal binding document about issuing MPT tickets. Estonia is in MPT, you deman your ticket being sold till Tallin, via SPB.

Print this out (or save in your computer):

You want to have the ticket cover like this:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/China/ticket/07_328.jpg

With pink (or orange) sheet like this, but saying Beijing to Tallin for two people instead of
Urumqi to Alma-ata:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/China/ticket/07_330.jpg

With green sheet like this, but sayong Beijing to Irkutsk for two persons instead of Urumqi to Alma-ata:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/China/ticket/07_329.jpg

Be calm and persistent: this is the law. They are breaking the law. This is 100%.

Thanks! I will give it a go. I just need to sort out a couple of other problems preventing me from going ahead;
> In person at Russian Embassy they say I can only apply for visa from country of residence, over telephone they say I might be able to apply.
> Need original copy of invitation for visa application, still seeking agent in Beijing that can assist and for a reasonable fee.

Great things never come easy!

Any recommendations on the above 2 problems are welcome.

Cheers
Suzi

- Russians have to give you 10 day transit visa igf you go by rail.
- Use http://waytorussia.net/ please, forget Chinaes agencies.

http://waytorussia.net/Travel/VisaSupport.html

Ask THEM questions. Russian consulates are known to be a problem.

BTW: what is your citizenship?

Advice how to deal with apparatchik-s. Apparatchik = bureaucrat of Soviet or post-Soviet systems. These can be even E.U. countries (Hungary) or "off-limit" countries (North Korea). Basically, similar thing....

- Always be persistent. Do not lose patience and in Far East (China, Korea, Mongolia, VietNam) do not raise voice, that is not good. May help, but could scare them and make them upset, you "losing face".

- Appratchik is actually not a bad guy at all. He has different agenda, he could be lazy, not in mood, etc. Your job is to convince him, denying you the service will be more burden for him, than not denying. Obviously you have to go prepared and knowing what you need. Do not ask him questions: demand (politely) the solution. Be prepared for some lame excuses and counter them

- In the case you are not dealing with official, try to go around. In the ticket office say, "I have some very difficult question and need the help of the manager" - do not ask the ticket girl, she knows nothing.

- In the case of consulate see waytorussia.net they know how to pull the ropes. A Chinese agency is much worse solution. Do it yourself.

But the bottom line is: take care about your Russian visa first. Without it buying the ticket is pointless.
Many people did manage get things straight - many did not. If you live in Europe, it is easier for you to visit China by rail from Europe, not the other way.

You may consider http://www.oasishongkong.com/intro.aspx?p=111 for reasonably priced one-way airplane tickets to London and postpone going to Russia. This will be an uphill battle: if you cannot squeeze the said tickets out of CITS and a Russian visa from consulate, the rest of your travel will be a pure frustration.

You may feel a little bit better, knowing that doing stuff against the law and being consumer-unfriendly happens also on Irish Rail - E.U. consumer protection here or there:

http://forum.virtualtourist.com/discussion-352841-1-1-Travel-0-400455-Prague-discussion.html#answerID_2430646

This lady was overcharged at least 20 Euro for a 4-hour trivial ticket - and it is still not clear, what was sold to her! Please read the above horror story.

Sadly, the railways should be more consumer-friendly everywhere. I also remember, an Amtrak agent was trying to charge me over $1000 for an Amtrak ticket worth ca. $300 at best.

Yes, the uphill battle continues!

They claim vehemently that they cannot sell us a ticket all the way to Tallin, only to Moscow. We sent a complaint to OSJD but we dont expect them to fix the situation.

We cannot get a tourist visa so our only option now is a transit visa which requires proof of passage into and out of Russia. Not getting the MPT we want makes this a challenge. Can you recommend an online agent that we can purchase train tickets from Moscow - SPB - Tallin, to provide the Russian embassy proof of passage.

There is a challenge to find an online agent who would issue you the tickets reliably. The reason for it is, you are not in the country you live - you are in China and your billing address is not matching your delivery address.

The only way which is coincidently the least painfull for you is to use the new Russian Rail ticket reserving service. Unfortunately it is in Russian only. You can create your ticket on-line and print it out with a bar code. But you will need a Russian who guides your hand all the way.

This is how the Russian on-line ticket looks like: http://www.mza.ru/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,73/topic,5493.0
More exactly: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2908/rzdonlineticketez7.jpg

This is the tichet web site: http://ticket.rzd.ru/wps/portal/pp

It is easy to use it - but only in Russian. I guess, you beg some junior worker at the consulate to help you out... I cannot, I am far away.

If you cannot use it, I suggest to fly one-way with Oasis unless you can wait for the CT-S ticket arriving from Europe (cannot do earlier than June 20).