Kyyivs'ka Oblast' Travel Forum

Hello,
I have to reach Anapa in 11-17 June 2007 from Lithuania. Does anybody know how I could do it in cheaper way? It is easy for us to get to Kiev. Are there any cheap flights to Krasnodar or Anapa from Kiev? Is there some train or buss? Maybe night train? Where I could check info?
Thank you in advance,
Letute

For air travel Kiev-Krasnodar check Aeroflot www.aeroflot.ru and/or Siberia airlines www.s7.ru
For trains
www.poezda.net

The transport connection between Ukraine and southern Russia is very poor. My uncle lives in Krasnodar, and we've tried various routes, but none of them is easy. The train between Kyiv and Krasnodar takes 24 hours, for example, and runs on odd days only. No Ukrainian airport has direct flights to Rostov or Krasnodar.

There are two ways to travel. One would be to take a plane to Simferopol, and then a bus to Anapa would take around 10 hours. The bus will board a ferry during this trip. I'm sure Lithuania has a good plane connection with Simferopol.

Alternatively, taking a plane to Krasnodar or Rostov through Moscow from Lithuania is also an option.

> Does anybody know how I could do it in cheaper way?
I think, I know - but no one tried it yet. There is an oddball situation with train prices and connections inherited from the time of Socialism. The key city in your case - surprise - is called Durrės in Albania.

It sounds very crazy then the reality. Albania - like some other few countries - is in MPT railway tariff agreement. Albania has no border crossing for passenger rail and borders no country with MPT (mezhdunarodnyj passazhirskij tairf). Due this fact a "virtual" railway link was established between port of Durrės and ports like Tallin, Odessa, Burgas etc. in order to facilitate international ticket issue for Albanians. It was done in 60-s.

Today all Baltic states are in MPT as well as Russia, Albania, and some other countries. What is important for you is that MGPT (mezhgosudarstvennyj passazhirskij tarif) between CIS countries became VERY expensive but MPT tariff is still reasonable.

Thus - as paradox ist is - say, a Durres-Durres(port)-Tallin(port)-Tallin-Moscow-Odessa ticket is much cheaper than Tallin-Moscow-Odessa ticket. In yor case it's a bit more complicated because Riga is not on the seacoast. But there should be a port city close to Riga which is in MPT tarif - and that should in theory serve you well.

Again this is NOT a standard procedure, it's a mighty loophole. It is known, for istnace that Moscow-Ulan Bator is much cheaper than Moscow-Irkutsk and many people use it. However, the trick with Durrės is largely unknown. You reall have to talk with the experts at railway international counter in Riga, perhaps "get friendly" with them, so they will help.

And do not be confused, there is no "sealine" to/from Durrės you can use: this connection was always "virtual" and it was used only to legally issue tickets within Albania for travlers originating from MPT countries or for Albanians going to MPT countries.

Again please do not blame me if the ticket office will refuse it - you will be probably the first passenger to ask for such ticket in last 40 years. But legally it can be done and it's about 2-3 times less than similar "mezhgos" ticket from Riga.

Kiev-Moscow-Krasnodar and Kiev-Moscow-Anapa with Aeroflot costs around 300 euros round trip.

www.jizdenka.com gives me Riga->Krasnodar 59.60 Euro. This is a discounted East-West tarif available in CZ, SK, PL only. But alas, it gives the exact km:

which is:
1523 tarif-km Krasnodar-Rostov-Michurinsk-Moskva, RZhD
0631 tarif-km Moskva - Shahovskaia - Veikie Luki - Posin(gr), RZhD

Total RZD: 2154 km

0283 tarif-km Posin (Gr) - Rezekne2-Riga, LZ

This is useful to calculate the Durrės-Krasnodar ticket price.

MPT tarif is here, valid for all countries involved:
http://www.gdo.kiev.ua/files/db.php?st=2109&god=2004

These are the base prices in CHF. Each country has own multipliers for both bed supplement and ticket. Russia's multiplier for ticket is 1.7, for bed supplement it's 1.75
(for instance compare it with 1.13 in China for sleeper supplement and 1.35 for ticket)
I do not know the LZ multiplicators but Letute can ask and it's very easy to get.

MPT-price is including bed:

- 36.40 Swiss franc * 1.7 for the Russian part (ticket) = 61.88 CHF
- 17.39 Swiss franc * 1.75 for the Moscow -> Krasnodar "Kupejny" supplement = 30.43 CHF
- 10.32 Swiss franc * (unknown multiplicator of LZ bed) for the Moscow -> Posin(gr) in Kupejnyj because the cars belong to LZ
- 9.69 Swiss franc * (unknown multiplicator of LZ ticket) for the Posin(gr) -> Riga ticket
- 5.98 Swiss franc * (unknown multiplicator of LZ bed) for the Posin(gr) -> Riga Kupejnyj supplement

The Riga (port)-Durrės(port) is the same, it's no charge
Durrės(port) - Dures is likely under 5 km and even if we do not know the Albanian multiplicator, the amount of money is neglectable.

As we see even if LZ uses extremely high (2.0) multiplicators the total price including 'plackarta' will stay under 150 Swiss Franc.

These international MPT tickets are independent of "firmennost'", so any train is fine and will cost the same. The key issue, is it any Riga-Port <--> Durrės connection in the tariff.

The only issue with flying through Moscow is that the TUs flying between Moscow and Krasnodar are not in a good shape, and the experience is not very pleasant.

Oooos, I messed up, sorry! I was under impression it's LV, (Riga), not Klaipeda (LT).

I am almost sure, Klaipeda has the Klaipeda (port) <--> Durrės (port) connection in the tarif, so it is even better. The routing around Belarus to avoid visa wold be:

Klaipeda - Siaulai - Sarkai (gr) = 224 km
Sarkai (gr) - Riga - Resekne2 - Posin (gr) = 359 km

The rest is the same.

Here we have an other "unknown" factor which is the Lituanian multiplicator.

On the other hand if Letute can "hop" over the border to Poland, she can get the roughly same ticket pricing as in jizdenka and there is no need for Albainan connection.

I see Klaipeda ->Krasnodar being 77.90 Euro via Riga and 71.60 via minsk, you can try

www.jizdenka.cz (switch to the international tariff)

Riga-Moscow-Anapa with Aeroflot: 360 euros round trip (incl all taxes). From Vilnius there is no convenient connection (overnight stop in MOW).

Noel,

The thing is, most people in CIS do not like to use airline services at all - and given the record it's understandable. If she can pich up train tickets in Poland for under 80 Euro each way, she is fine.
These tickets I mentioned in jizdenka aren't sold in CIS countries. If she does not want to go to Poland, than she may try Albanian trick, it should work from Klaipeda because it's a sea port and it is in the internatonal tarif.

Lithuania is not CIS, it's EU, my choo-choo friend :)

And Aeroflot is a Skyteam member now.

This is not political but rather travle question. Sorry, Lithuania is 100% in CIS according the Express-3 reservation system. :-)

Anyway, options abundant now for the poster, it's her decision now.

Here is a typical Lithuanian Express-2/3 ticket:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/lt/ticket/Klaipeda_Vilnius.jpg

This is a universal CIS ticket format. Her task is to "beat" Express-2/3 pricing.

OK, this one shows even better:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/lt/ticket/ticket_vilnius_riga.jpg

Of course Baltic States are in the EU. But from railway legalese point of view they are in CIS:

- all of them are MPT members
- none of them are CIV members, they do not use TCV pricing
- they use "Vostok-Zapad" tarif in leieu of CIV
- they use "MC" (mezhdunarodnoe soobschenie) ticket blanks even for CIV traffic:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/lt/ticket/LG_Vilnius_Warszawa_cover.jpg

Yes--I saw it. Understood. Anyway, of course you're the expert on the rails....

> Anyway, of course you're the expert on the rails

I have to push back on this one, am really devastated I overlook Riga versus Klaipeda.

I was even thinking "darn, Riga may have no international port, too bad she is not Klaipeda".
But on the other side Klaipeda is a good advantage if she has time to visit Poland.

What all fuss about is the very unfortunate fact that since ca. 1999 the inter-CIS (including Balticum) rail travel as well as domestic Russian rail travel prices did increase astronomically. What around 1999 used to be 1200 Rouble is now close to 10000. The reason for it is that the Russian goverment put a "cap" on 'platskartny' (=secrion sleeper) and 'obschiy' (=couch) prices only - the railway is free to inflate anything which is better. And they did.

It led to a paradox that what earlier used to be expensive (i.e. ticket prices to foreigners) became essentially cheaper than the ticet price for Russians. Now there is no more "ticket price to foreigners" - everyone pays the same astronomic price within Russia - but the "foreigner price" is still alive abroad, outside of CIS (+Balticum). That means that everything of longer distnace and better quality is almost automatically cheaper say, in Netherlands than in Russia.

Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia have extra advantage because the base ticket price there is 50% less than in NL or Germany. Some countries (Hungary, Serbia) have a bit different advantage. But the best aside of famous CITY-STAR tickets bought in few countries are the countries still in the "old" socialist train system like China, Mongolia, etc. The only countries in Europe who are members of MPT are Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Russia, Ukraina, Albania. Unfortunately only Albania is the one who is not in "CIS" (+Balticum). This is "unfortunately" because even if, say Russia and, say, Lithuania are in MPT, they are also in MGPT (inter-CIS agreement) and unfortunately MGPT is "stronger" than MPT, so if country "A" and country "B" is in MPT and MGPT, MGPT will always "win".

MGPT is a tarif "inside" of CIS between two CIS countries and it is very much "adjusted" to Russian or Baltic railway price inflation, more often than not it is even more expensive than Russian domestic. :-((

Since there is no chance the young lady can do anything with Asian MPT countries - they are simply too far away, the only remaining one is Albania, whic fortuantely is "connected" via virtual seaborder to numeroud seaports in MPT countries.

I am really surprised how friendly and good willing you are. I very very thankfull for advices, you are really super. It is so nice to have so much info and answers and to feel a apart of big world ;-)
Thank you again.
Wish you everything best. Ask me info if needed about Baltics, I will be there for you ;-)
Letute

The best what you can do for us and many-many other passengers is to patiently try to get the MPT information out of railway bureaucrats at the station:

- what multipliers for ticket and plackarta are used in Baltic states on MPT?
- does Durrės connection work as expected?

Finally, if you canpt get it, don't panic: you can get the discounted "Vostok-Zapad" tickets in Poland.
Also learn how to use www.jizdenka.cz - it is an amazing tool and you can "crack" many tarif secrets with it. It's really easy tool.

Thank YOU for your friendly reply to all of us, that's really appreciated.
Have fun and safe travels!