London Travel Answers

There is nothing whatsoever to stop you using a cheap day return ticket as a single. They aren't named anyway, and no-one is going to come chasing after you to make you go back to where you came from! You should look at the official UK railway website to find out what is available and when: www.nationalrail.co.uk There is absolutely no need to buy cheap day return tickets in advance online. They cannot sell out and trains cannot get full-up (i.e. so that you are not allowed onto them). I'm a little confused about the 60GBP you quote. You are travelling on a Sunday...fare from London Bridge (direct) to Hassocks is only 9.50GBP per adult one-way. First-class fare is more, but an entirely unnecessary expense imo. But on a Sunday you can indeed get a 'super off-peak day return' for all 3 of you for 18.75. Play around with the nationalrail site and see what the fare will be for your preferred departure time. Station ticket office staff will also tell you the cheapest option, if you ask.

The normal train that I use for this route is operated by FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT however I know that because of engineering works during weekends the service normally does not run at the moment from St Pancras / Kings Cross down to London Bridge. (This is the Bedford to Brighton old Thameslink service) I have checked on the FCC web site and see that sure enough Sunday 15th is going to be blocked. See page 2 : firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/st... Now I also know that the slow train London - Brighton operated by SOUTHERN RAILWAY has some low fares if you travel off peak however SOUTHERN run a service from VICTORIA station to Brighton. Looking at SOUTHERN you can buy an ADULT one way fare VICTORIA to HASSOCKS for £4 on many train leaving Victoria at mainly 34 minutes past the hour on Sunday 15th July. Child fare is £2. I would recommend looking at this option especially because a through train option by FCC is not available and you would need to take a TUBE train to reach either St Pancras or Victoria. Take a look at SOUTHERN : http://www.southernrailway.com If I am correct the total fare from VICTORIA for 2 adults and one child (5 to 15) will be £10 but on certain trains as mentioned before and with T&Cs. Please see if this agrees on the web site. If you have an Oyster Card already then transferring from St Pancras / Kings X to Victoria is cheaper than paying the single cash fare of £4.30 twice + £2.10 child. Have only given you the basics so up to you to discover more. SOUTHERN trains are fine and they are marketing more and more these days to attract customers who would not normally travel from say London to Brighton. I was astonished the other week to find that I could take a train from Haywards Heath to Victoria for £3.50 (on a Sunday) and what's more they posted the ticket to me at home FIRST CLASS so I did not need to pick up the ticket at the machine. Amazing. I wonder sometimes if the National Rail web site provides enough information about fares. It is very good though at giving plenty of clues and information about who does what where.

Many thanks to leics and alfred_the_great for the helpful replies! This does get complicated but it seems there are many options and that it is possible to do the trip for much less than I had feared! But if I enter St. Pancras-Hassocks on nationalrail.co.uk the best fare it offers me for a single is also 59,75 for 2 adults and 1 child or 23,90 for 1 adult (or am I doing something else wrong?! (all 2nd class of course)). But you are right if I enter London Bridge - Hassocks I get 9,50 for an adult single, quite a difference! I can't quite figure out why - the St. Pancras trip is actually with a change at London Bridge anyway, but surely it doesn't cost 14,40 (the difference) for one adult to go from St. Pancras to London Bridge?! The other thing is AFAIR I would have to buy the ticket in advance (or at least on the internet) since I think you can otherwise (i.e. from ticket office or machine at the station) only buy a day return travelcard from Hassocks to London if you are actually in Hassocks (which I will not be) - or has that changed? Thanks to alfred for the Southern tip - indeed Victoria-Hassocks is do-able for a tenner for all 3 of us, a truly remarkable bargain, especially after the initial shock of starting at 59,75 with my naively simple first query!

A heavy reliance on the National Rail web site for fares can lead to some extra payment because each of the Railway operators may have some specific special offers that apply to certain trains and for example can be non-refundable. So I suppose that if National Rail web included every single permutation of fares then it would be a very complicated affair. Also you searched for a Sunday service when there are no trains from St Pancras to London Bridge ! If you look for the same fare during the weekday then you will get a better picture. So maybe the National Rail web site cannot handle these hiccups ? What National Rail web site is good for is to give the user some 'clues' about the main operating companies and timings. Local knowledge can help when searching for the best fares of course. In my experience if I have the time then I will look into the operating companies web sites as well. For example, by booking certain tickets on line in UK and picking up the tickets at the self service machines can lead to a discounted fare. Last time I did this the saving was 14%. That discount is not shown on the National Rail web site as far as I know. Rail travel in UK has improved a lot over the past 10 years however instead of one Nationalised railway company handling all the travel you now have many and serving London to Hassocks are two : SOUTHERN and FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT. And for example FCC do not run trains to Victoria etc only through London stopping at for example London Bridge, Blackfriars, St Pancras International etc.

It's easiest to just use 'London (all stations)' as your start point, rather than a specific station. That makes things much simpler for 'the computer' because getting from station A to station B within London is not usually done by train (other than Tube). The nationalrail site probably does not show all the huge variation in offers from individual railway companies (oh, for the days pre-privatisation!) but has expanded itself to include many of them (scroll down, left-hand side). But it *is* the official website which gives all the basic info you need and is thus the first place to start when seeking railway information. If you then wish to look at individual railway company websites then fair enough. There are some direct trains on Sundays from St P to Hassocks. 2 adults and 1 child cost 24.90 in total, so I am still bemused about the original price you got! :-)

I for one was not bemused by the original price. FCC fare St Pancras - Hassocks direct is £12.60 for adult, one way. The other, higher fare, routes via London Underground (tube) from St Pancras to Victoria then Southern Railway and as we regrettably know, cash fares on the Underground are fantastically expensive! For the record, the weekend service through the tunnel between St Pancras and London Bridge resumed a couple of weeks ago on completion of the work to reconstruct Blackfriars station and the bridge over the River Thames. On a normal Sunday direct trains run between St Pancras and Hassocks every 30 minutes from 0654 to 2254. But,as us regulars all know, weekend maintenance work frequently interrupts service. As suggested above anyone proposing to travel on a Saturday or Sunday should check for changes to the normal service.

O I see...it included Tube fares. That makes sense now. Weekend maintenance is a hassle everywhere in the UK, of course...and Sundays are not good anyway. But at least the OP won't need to pay 60GBP (or buy online). :-)

In short: Single rail tickets in England cost about 5 percent less (at most) than day returns. For short distances (less than 100 miles), always buy the ticket at the station (same fare at ticket machine and counter. Be at the station at least 30 mins before the train leaves, as there might be queues at ticket counters, especially during rush hours. I am always surprised at finding higher fares online than when buying it at the station.

>Single rail tickets in England cost about 5 percent less (at most) than day returns. Sorry, but that is not a firm rule in any way, I'm afraid. It depends absolutely and entirely on route, date and departure. For example, cheap day return to London from where I live is around 40GBP. Single fare is from 9.50GBP. The price you see on the nationalrail website is the price you will pay at the station. Other (agency, not rail operator) websites may give only the higher fares, don't know. If you want to buy cheaper advance fares (available for some routes, dates, departures) from the station you can only do so up to 6pm the day before travel.

One more question about the Southern connection - maybe also generally valid. If I buy a cheap ticket in advance is the ticket literally valid only on a single departure time? Southern have for example trains from London Victoria to Hassocks on 15.07.2012 at 16:27, 17:27, 18:27, 19:27 that all cost 4 pounds. If I buy a ticket for the 16:27 may I also travel with this ticket on the 17:27? They also offer more expensive connections between these, obviously it's not valid on those. But do such tickets actually have a particular departure time or train number printed on them, and are then only valid on that? If so that could be a problem, since I cannot be 100% sure when we will get to Victoria. The Eurostar could be late and I'm not sure how long we need for the tube (may buy Oyster cards etc.). I've never seen this in the UK that you are obliged to take just one particular departure time but here in Germany it is the norm at least with cheap tickets, no different to flying. I did read the Terms & Conditions but it seems unclear to me - it says e.g.: "CHANGING THE TIME OR DATE OF TRAVEL. Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change. Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased." but that seems to be for reservations, obviously a seat reservation is only possible on a particular train, but since no reservation is possible here anyway one could interpret that to mean that a change is possible anytime. As far as the "service" bit goes - not sure if service means e.g. just "Southern" or "The Southern 16:27 from Victoria" - indeed the more expensive services seem to involve a change to FCC at East Croyden. Can anyone shed light on this?! Many thanks!

Cheap day returns are usually valid for any train on the day although they may only be valid outside peak periods...it depends entirely on the route. Sometimes they are not for any train if there are different services operated by different companies, but mostly they are. They don't have specific train times printed on them. Advance tickets are not the same as cheap day returns. They are usually for a specific departure time, although this may not be printed on the ticket itself (can't remember, have never bothered to look).

Thanks, in this case it would not be a cheap day return, simply a single Victoria-Hassocks. I mailed Southern with the question a few days ago, so far no answer, will post back if/when I get one.

I think you can see from www.nationalrail.co.uk whether a single ticket for a particular journey/date is departure-restricted. My internet connection is desperately slow at the moment so I can't check for you, sorry. If you buy it in advance chances are it will be departure-restricted, as you will choose a particular departure time when you buy it. But as I have not bought any rail tickets online for several years I cannot be certain that the time will or will not be printed on the ticket itself.

Thanks for the tip - yes actually when you do the query on nationalrail.co.uk the cheap connections appear with a the fare type "Advance" and the word "Advance" has a tool tip with the text: "Advance : advance fares offer great value for money, you must book in advance and travel on a specific train" so that's pretty clear I guess. The ticket must have a departure time or some kind of train identification on it.

Thought so...I just couldn't check. At the moment, it's like being on dial-up here. :-(

In other words: Get any short-haul ticket (less than 100 miles) from the counter and avoid these funny online offers. Booking a train or a seat for such short distances is a farce...

You might think that, and it may well be the case in Switzerland, but I can assure you that in the UK booking a ticket in advance (even if that just means buying it at the station up to 6pm the night before travel) can often (usually?) save you a heck of a lot of money whatever the journey distance. There are very few UK train journeys for which I would buy tickets on the day of travel. I think most Brits who use the railways would say the same. As an example: the cheapest fare London>Hassocks this coming Wednesday is 5GBP. It must be bought before 6pm on Tuesday. The next cheapest fare is 12.60, but that is only available for certain trains. Other trains cost 19.70. Buying in advance can provide big savings in the UK. The system may indeed be a farce, but we have to work with what exists.

It may be a farce for many people. A farce is defined as a 'ridiculous sham'. But funnily enough just after I booked a ticket online using a Special Offer that I could not refuse on Southern Railways I looked at this thread again. I paid £4 for a single that would normally cost over £12 or more. I am not the kind of chap who would throw money away. My journey is one that is planned and if I don't make it then too bad I lose £4. A bit like buying the cheap budget airline tickets. If you see a bargain fare and you think you can fly at that time then snap it up. I would never dream of turning up at the airport to buy a ticket. So the culture of bagging bargain fares is one of the things that has become ingrained in the culture of UK travel in my opinion for many travellers on low incomes. Certainly train travellers are kept on their toes and that is why web sites like http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ are popular with UK folks. (the owner of this UK web site Martin Lewis recently sold out for £60,000,000 - surely he saved quite a lot of money helping others save !) As I said above in the thread, even buying a rail ticket using the internet on the day of travel on Southern Railways can save money.

Good point about not dreaming of turning up at the airport to buy a ticket on the day. I appreciate that this is not the norm in mainland Europe. There are good advance discount deals to be had in some countries for some routes/departures, and the compulsory reservation trains are often worth booking in advance. But, as a general rule, I wouldn't dream of buying tickets in advance for 'ordinary' mainland European railway travel. The UK fare system is unusual in this respect.